Would you replace, patch, or "metal work" these quarters - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2010, 02:14 PM
cab cab is offline
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 135
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Would you replace, patch, or "metal work" these quarters

All,

OK, I am hoping THIS year will be the year I tackle paint and body on my 67 Firebird Convertible (famous last words). Anyway, my car is 90% sanded to metal and the sins (those visible anyway) have been revealed. In looking at the rear quarter panels I always assumed I would need to reskin the driver's side and the passenger side would be OK (I actually have a driver's skin).

Now that they are completely sanded I am thinking my options are:
1. Re-skin both
2. Re-skin the passenger side only (less rust, but a lot more body damage), and patch the driver's side
3. Patch both sides and bondo up some spots that don't lend themselves to patching (this was obviously the previous owner's approach)

I am loathe to do number 3 as the bondo was heavy enough in spots that it began to crack, but in others I had no idea until we started sanding!
Beyond, the "What would you do?" - any tips on where to make the cuts in my specific situation would be helpful. On one hand there is the camp that says "leave as much original metal as possible: and the other that say "just replace the whole skin".

Here are the smaller pics (larger at link below):

Passenger's Side:















Driver's Side:









Here are larger versions (you can zoom, etc.):

67 Firebird Quarter Pics



Thanks

Chris
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 07-13-2010, 05:24 PM
swvalcon's Avatar
Member
 

Last journal entry: rust on lt body shell
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: mn
Age: 64
Posts: 1,007
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 11 Times in 11 Posts
I would most definitely replace those 1/4 panels with a good grade replacement panel.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2010, 05:12 AM
deadbodyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Stripping paint Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: augusta,ga.
Age: 53
Posts: 5,721
Wiki Edits: 11

Thanks: 17
Thanked 276 Times in 227 Posts
these replacement GM 1/4s have come a long way and if you get the full 1/4s they are the best quality...my vote is to replace also...I've done many of these and one thing I've learned is dont go cheap with the metal ,buy the best or you'll regret it later...You'll most definetly need inner panels too those arnt so important but you'll need to know a few tricks to get them to fit right...On average I restore about one of these a year....I rescue them from the drag strip and bring them back to original condition...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	100_2037 (Small).JPG
Views:	100
Size:	52.3 KB
ID:	46741   Click image for larger version

Name:	100_2080 (Small).JPG
Views:	107
Size:	56.5 KB
ID:	46742  

Last edited by deadbodyman; 07-14-2010 at 05:22 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2010, 09:45 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 12,671
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 614
Thanked 947 Times in 847 Posts
It really depends on where your skills lie. If you are good a "fixin" things, then repair them. If you have never did a quarter panel or anything like it, then repair them.

In a general autobody shop setting they would be replaced being replacing them would cost less money than repairing them. But DAMN, they really aren't that bad! The left one especially, I don't think I would be replacing that one. The right side, yeah, it's pretty rough.

Repro metal may have came a long way but it still isn't a "bolt in". For the first timer to wrestle around on the floor on broken glass with the repro panel trying to make it fit properly, YEOW, it can be pretty painful.

It REALLY DOES come down to how much experience do you have and what kind of project do you want to start. Because hanging two quarters is a HUGE project for someone who isn't in this game everyday.

Both those quarters are totally repairable and they both "should" be replaced, so either way you are good to go.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 07-14-2010, 11:24 PM
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Seattle
Posts: 312
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 14 Times in 11 Posts
Only you can do the math on this one:

what's the car worth to you
what's your time worth to you
are you going to keep the car forever
will you sell the car when the new baby arrives
do you have the space for the time it will ACTUALLY take to do this
can you jig the car so it doesn't shift or sag while apart
is it a #matching resto-rod or a street cruiser
yada, yada, yada and blah, blah, blah

"On one hand there is the camp that says "leave as much original metal as possible: and the other that say "just replace the whole skin". "

IF you cut and crimp below the upper body line you wind up with 5 feet of exposed welding to finish off, replacing the full panel the welds are on the flanges. Guess which way is FAR AND AWAY easier to finish inside and out.

Personally I would replace both 1/4s and rear body panel, they rotted for a reason and that reason is still in there when you patch them.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2010, 12:10 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 12,671
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 614
Thanked 947 Times in 847 Posts
Now, I haven't replaced a part like that with repro in a number of years. But when I did, it was such crap, just GARBAGE compared to the original covering those with filler is a step up!

If they have gotten a LOT better, my opinion doesn't mean a whole lot. But I don't think they have gotten that good.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2010, 07:00 AM
deadbodyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Stripping paint Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: augusta,ga.
Age: 53
Posts: 5,721
Wiki Edits: 11

Thanks: 17
Thanked 276 Times in 227 Posts
Both of you guys have raised some very good points to consider. putting a seam just under the body line is best for me because I can weld it without warping at all and its the best place structurally ,after metal finishing it didnt get any bondo just two skim coats of finishing putty....
It seems to me that bondo work is much harder to get right then metal working and takes way more time to look terrible ...
If I was you I would put my FULL 1/4 on and use the factory seams that way most of the flaws will be handled with primer....and NO bondo,its a little harder to get apart but way better for your welding without warping... Just beware: look very closely at the jambs ,this is the bad spots on all full 1/4s where the skin rolls into the jambs is never quite as good as the origial and the jambs themselves look aftermarket .so anyone that knows what an aftermarket jamb looks like can tell it as replaced.thats another reason I cut my full 1/4s so they look like original to an expert at resale time...any one that buys one looks right at the 1/4s first because they all get replaced around here. It makes them worth a lot more this way...
finishing bondo takes years to master and even if done by a pro, another pro can usually see it...Not only that ,simply knocking it with your knuckle will tell you where the bondo is by the tone it makes....
fixing it with bondo is by far the cheapest way to get there but the results arnt going to be that good...or long lasting.

So there you go ...,you have some very good info here and lots to consider and I'm sure you can find lots of help when you get started (no matter which way you go) right here,if you have any problems.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2010, 08:30 AM
cab cab is offline
Registered User
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Dallas
Posts: 135
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
All,

First, thanks to everyone that has replied. I've posted here and on the Firebird forum and as you might suspect I have a mix of replies. I'm still not sure 100% on what I'm going to do, but here is my initial thought (subject to change, all rights reserved, etc.):

Pre-requisite info:
1. I have a Miller Mig welder, but have never welded sheet metal (for real). I have practiced on some old fenders from a body shop. It isn't "hard" per se, but it does take a lot of practice (IMO) and I'm sure I'll make mistakes based on my practice (i.e. blow throughs, etc.)

2. I have two repro quarter skins (i.e. they cover the full side and only wrap about 3/4" of an inch over the top toward the trunk and into the jambs). They looks pretty decent, but I can tell the metal is thinner than the factory metal.

3. The car is a 67 Firebird convertible, non-number's matching (originally a 6 cylinder Sprint car, now with a 455) - I want it to look nice (but am not hung up on it being show nice or anything), and I want to say I did the work myself (I've done the interior, front disk brake conversion, engine rebuild, front suspension rebuild, etc.).


The Tentative Plan - cut patches from my skins
First, the metal on both sides is REALLY solid virtually everywhere you don't see obvious rust, and as such I'd like to keep as much metal as possible.. When I saw the rust on the driver's side lip (the rectangle I cut out) I assumed the whole lip would be trash., but poking and prodding seems to show the rest is surprisingly pretty good. Do I suspect rust is still back behind there - yes, (like every old car) but I think the lip is really pretty solid and it isn't swiss cheese (many folks commented that the quarters just aren't that bad - I tend to agree). So, for the driver's side I am going to attempt to patch both the lip area and the lower area immediately behind the wheel well where you can see it was already patched once - I may cut out just beneath the mid-body line back to the tail (leaving the factory bumper mount area).

Now for the passenger side...hmmm, this one is a lot tougher. The two nastiest areas for me are 1.) the area around my Chevrons (gills) including the mid-body seem between them and of course the area that wraps into the lower part of the jamb and 2.) the area beneath the upper body-line where several holes were drilled at it was pulled. I am thinking of metal working the upper area as best I can, filling the holes and then smoothing with filler - I just have to find a way to get this area flatter and closer to the correct profile than it is now. For the area around the chevrons and door jamb, I'd like to cut that out and weld in a patch, but I'm not sure where to make the cuts for the best results - normally I would say beneath the mid body-line, but the mid-body line is pretty mangled itself so I'm wondering if I should just hack out a rectangle starting immediately beneath the upper chevron or just sacrifice both Chevrons, etc. - Any thought on this specific plan (I can take it - I'm a big boy)?

Last edited by cab; 07-15-2010 at 08:34 AM. Reason: typo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2010, 10:40 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 12,671
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 614
Thanked 947 Times in 847 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by cab



The Tentative Plan - cut patches from my skins
First, the metal on both sides is REALLY solid virtually everywhere you don't see obvious rust, and as such I'd like to keep as much metal as possible.. When I saw the rust on the driver's side lip (the rectangle I cut out) I assumed the whole lip would be trash., but poking and prodding seems to show the rest is surprisingly pretty good. Do I suspect rust is still back behind there - yes, (like every old car) but I think the lip is really pretty solid and it isn't swiss cheese (many folks commented that the quarters just aren't that bad - I tend to agree). So, for the driver's side I am going to attempt to patch both the lip area and the lower area immediately behind the wheel well where you can see it was already patched once - I may cut out just beneath the mid-body line back to the tail (leaving the factory bumper mount area).

Now for the passenger side...hmmm, this one is a lot tougher. The two nastiest areas for me are 1.) the area around my Chevrons (gills) including the mid-body seem between them and of course the area that wraps into the lower part of the jamb and 2.) the area beneath the upper body-line where several holes were drilled at it was pulled. I am thinking of metal working the upper area as best I can, filling the holes and then smoothing with filler - I just have to find a way to get this area flatter and closer to the correct profile than it is now. For the area around the chevrons and door jamb, I'd like to cut that out and weld in a patch, but I'm not sure where to make the cuts for the best results - normally I would say beneath the mid body-line, but the mid-body line is pretty mangled itself so I'm wondering if I should just hack out a rectangle starting immediately beneath the upper chevron or just sacrifice both Chevrons, etc. - Any thought on this specific plan (I can take it - I'm a big boy)?
Personally, with the background info, I think you are right on track. That is my personal opinion of what YOU should do given what you have told us.

I have done this stuff for a living for over 30 years, sure hanging a quarter is no big deal. And even then I would think a LOT before I cut off one of these original quarters. I just like working with the original steel.

Can a newbe first timer hang a quarter, sure, it isn't rocket science. But on the same note, it can be SERIOUSLY overwhelming! I do have to recommend to not strip the whole car, again, this can be SERIOUSLY overwhelming. Strip one panel at a time and get it into epoxy primer before moving to the next.

I recently had an eye opening experience into the life of a newbe, I remodeled my bathroom. We are talking "full restoration" with stripping paint to bare metal and changing quarters. Now mind you, remodeling a bathroom is pretty simple stuff right? I have built cars from scratch, made frames, plumbed, wired, installed glass, motors, everything. Cut tubing to length, cutting wood to length, what is the difference? HOLY CRAP it kicked my ever loving butt! I was beat to a pulp by this bathroom! If didn't HAVE TO get it done (this is a one bathroom house) I would have gave up and it would be a rusting pile out in the garage if you know what I mean. And that is exactly what happens to so many of these projects. See those half built cars at swap meets? That is usually why they are there, the owners were overwhelmed and gave up.

You know if you have the drive or not, with a good looking over of that quarter on the car and where it is welded and looking at the jobs others have done on the net and looking at that repro quarter sitting on your bench, you know if you are ready for such a task. If you are, go for it, it is only time, not a huge deal. But if you are not ready for it, it is SERIOUSLY OVERWHELMING.

Patching those quarters, you have a lot more "control", do one area and then move on to the next. By the time you get the easy side done, you are ready for the harder side. I recommend doing the fenders and doors first to if you are really new to this, that way you really get some time under your belt working with this stuff and get more comfortable.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2010, 10:56 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 12,671
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 614
Thanked 947 Times in 847 Posts
By the way, I don't know if it has been mentioned, but you REALLY need to look over the quarter for rust. It is really important that you take every speck of rust seriously. If you see spots of rust on the surface around the wheel well and under the bottom push on it with a pointed tool like a scriber. Those spots of rust are OFTEN coming from the back and you will go right thru it if you push a scriber on it. If it was caused by a chip in the paint or something then it is "surface rust". But if it is coming from the back, that is the "last rust" and on the other side it is eaten away! It usually is so bad, a ball point pen can be easily pushed thru it.

So look it over good, there is a VERY good chance there is some more rust there that you haven't seen.

This of course another one of those deciding points on replacing the quarter or not. If you find a bunch of those rust spots then you DO have a lot more rust behind that panel that is thinning the metal from the inside out and replacement may be the only common sense way to take care of it.

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2010, 01:17 PM
geezer69's Avatar
Die standin' up
 

Last journal entry: geezer69 nova 63
Last photo:
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: princeton texas
Age: 62
Posts: 411
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
i like origional metal on cars too. i would save em .proly take longer and cost more but id give it a try....like has ben



said,check dang good for rust first.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2010, 04:12 AM
deadbodyman's Avatar
Registered User
 
Last wiki edit: Stripping paint Last photo:
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: augusta,ga.
Age: 53
Posts: 5,721
Wiki Edits: 11

Thanks: 17
Thanked 276 Times in 227 Posts
With your background info I think it would be a good idea to patch and fill them ,get a little experiance with it ,thats how I started out..The patch panels you have are only good for patches ,dont try using the whole thing just cut out what you need...I think your on the right track...And you can always put the full 1/4s on in a couple years if need be...

I'm really glad you started this thread ,I've be sitting on the fence with an idea I wanted to try,now you've helped me decide to give it a shot....I've been thinking about starting a mobile service for guys just like you that have a carand want to do it by yourself.I'll start with a consulting service and help with every step in the process,even work side by side with the customer up to a point where he feels comfortable on his own ..it'll be nice to have someone to call and come over to advise and help from stripping all the way through to paint..I've got a big duel axel utility trailer thats been used once in five years ,it'll make a nice traveling metal shop...I'm putting my add in today.
Brian ,I just re did my single bath ,be looking for my PM we can have a few laughs,I've got some stories to tell that'll have you rolling on the floor...are you a member of ponchos "handyman" site????

Last edited by deadbodyman; 07-16-2010 at 05:08 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2010, 09:28 AM
MARTINSR's Avatar
Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
Last photo:
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: San francisco bay area
Age: 55
Posts: 12,671
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 614
Thanked 947 Times in 847 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
Brian ,I just re did my single bath ,be looking for my PM we can have a few laughs,I've got some stories to tell that'll have you rolling on the floor...are you a member of ponchos "handyman" site????
When I think of how I have built cars from scratch, you would think I could remodel a bathroom! HOLY CRAP did it kick my ever loving ars! This is that "overwhelming" feeling, standing there looking at a bare bathroom floor joists and wall studs with a toilet still there because it is the only one you have!

I could put in a tub enclosure, do a floor, install a new vanity, maybe a new shower valve, any of those things is no big deal. But ALL of it at once? HOLY CRAP it kicked my butt.

So like a newbe with a quarter panel, sure rock and roll, a paint job, no problem, it's a big project they can pull it off. Swapping out the interior or a motor, not a big deal. But to do it ALL, that is SERIOUSLY overwhelming!

Brian
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2010, 04:56 AM
Kevin45's Avatar
Just one of the guys
 

Last journal entry: Garage Toys
Last photo:
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Urbana, Ohio
Age: 57
Posts: 3,055
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 12 Times in 12 Posts
I'd replace the quarters if it were me. Reason being is that you have rust between the inner wheel housing and outer skin that cannot be properly taken care of unless the two panels are seperated. And I think in the long run, you would be happier that you did it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Body - Exterior posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
If you do not want to register, fill this field only and the name will be used as user name for your post.
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:

Log-in

Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Import quarter panel repair hoffmandirt Body - Exterior 14 06-24-2008 05:22 AM
To patch or replace, that's the question. miesrules Body - Exterior 2 02-12-2007 01:35 PM
$$$ to replace rear quarters?? AZ_Ron Body - Exterior 7 01-31-2006 09:15 AM
Quarter Panel Patch Ron M Body - Exterior 2 08-02-2004 08:05 AM
Quarter Panel Patch Ron M Body - Exterior 1 07-27-2004 01:12 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:59 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.