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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2004, 07:33 PM
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thats kind of how i thought the polyester resin systems worked. but i truthfully wasn't too sure on that .. Thanks for the help Willy..

Composites are defianetly a really cool thing to get involved in but remember "use proper safety gear"... you wouldn't weld with out a helmet, don't fiberglass with out a respirator, and gloves.. This stuff will eventually kill you (especially if you make it a career)if you don't take the proper precautions now...

*edit* i also noticed that we didn't answer the question about "with epoxy resins do you use a standard polyester gel coat".

The answer to that is I believe yes... I have never been able to find an epoxy gel coat, but i have never looked for one either.

I actually got a question though, for repairing.. Say you have a great part that you get a crack in it.. you sand away the gel coat, taper the edges and put a new layer of fiberglass down on the repair.. can you put gel coat over top of the repair, and sand down and polish the gel coat so that it looks like there is no repair there. the reason i ask is because i was told that gel coats need to be "oxygen deprived" in order to set is this true? and if it is can i just use vacuum bagging in order to "set" the new gel coat

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2004, 07:42 PM
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If were done posting books I can simplify this for you.
Ist epoxy fiberglass and polyester fiberglass kicks and reacts the same way, Both use MEKP type hardeners.
Both kick with a process of gas and than heat or known as cooking.

To simplify this they kick just like body filler and exact amount of hardener is not an exact science. Yes the epoxy takes a higher dose because the epoxy is a tighter wound resin such as "Sealer vs a Primer" Both will kick with an extra dose just like body filler will extra too fast to work with less will result in slower cure times.
This is much more critical in epoxy vs Polly!

Other question was why the problem with epoxy hardening, this is just to simple.
You have a very tight resin system and like a high solids clear you must force the mix so all parts get activated equally.
If not a good enough mix you will have hot spots, these are area's that have too much hardener and sections with to little, a true problem with epoxy fiberglass because of the tightly wound resin and the thickness of it. This is not much of a concern with poly because its like comparing a low solids clear to a high solids clear.

Next question is clears must be mated with A & B Isocyanate's the nocs must be with in 5%, this is a totally different system
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Old 11-21-2004, 08:42 PM
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on the heat and polyesters, yes and no. polyester resins are promoted with cobalt. you can buy resin promoted or unpromoted, not from your avaerage supplier but it is available. when mekp is mixed into the promoted resin it reacts with the cobalt forming or releasing what eaxctly i'm not sure but the agent or chemical realeased from the two causes the polyester to cure. you can take unpromoted resin and put it in the oven all day long and you wont make it kick, the heat is just a byproduct of the reaction which in turn speeds up the reaction also. i made a nice little "bomb" once. put a few ounces of cobalt in a cup, threw in a couple more ounces of mekp and run like hell!!!. in bare form like that they react very fast but when mixed into the resin it slows it down quite a bit to a normal cure. if you have ever noticed you can buy winter time resin and warm weather resin. both are the same but one will be a darker color beacuse it has a little more cobalt in it and makes it kick faster in cold weather.

by the way!!! the poor guy just wanted to know if his wrinkled glass was still good.

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Old 11-21-2004, 10:11 PM
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Epoxies are composed of two parts, most commonly diepoxide and a polyfunctional amine which are the 'Parts A and B' of the glue you buy in the store or get in a 50 gallon drum. Bisphenol A and epichlorohydrin are the common components of 'part A'. The polyfunctional amine used in part 'B' can be of several compounds depending on the characteristics desired but it is definitely not MEKP and it must be mixed in a very precise ratio for optimal crosslinking to occur. Too much of either compound results in a less than optimum result.

Conversely, polyester resin in combination to styrene monomer which helps in the polymerization reaction and as a thinner for the sticky polyester resin, uses MEKP as a catalyst as opposed to a hardner. The MEKP accelerates the inevitable crosslinking of the resin but does not become part of the plastic as the hardener in epoxy resin does.

This site does a pretty good job of describing the differences in the chemistry. Don't get scared off by the chemical formulas, the text is written in English so us common folk can understand it!
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Old 11-21-2004, 10:33 PM
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so what would you make speaker pods/sub boxes out of poly for it's cheapness?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2004, 11:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by mrcleanr6

by the way!!! the poor guy just wanted to know if his wrinkled glass was still good.
Funny where a thread will lead. I guess Psionic got his answer so now it someone elses turn to have fun. I love this stuff, I wish there was a good forum like this on science. I have a lot of questions about partical accelerators. No kidding!

Right now, I have no comments or questions, I have to go back and read some of these posts a few times.

Willy's, that link is a good one, can you see the schematic representations of the different technologies? All I see is the darn box with the red x in it. Those really help me understand things lke this. I hope when I go back to it later I will be able to see them.

I feel like this guy...
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Old 11-21-2004, 11:36 PM
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I was instructed on particle accelerators, what would you like to know?

no kidding either
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2004, 11:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dubz
I was instructed on particle accelerators, what would you like to know?

no kidding either
Ok, lets take this tread to another galaxy.

I have read and read text on how they work. I have seen in person at the Lawrence hall of science at Cal Berkley some of the real Cyclotrons Earnest Lawrence made in the 1930s. His scales to weigh partical matter and so on. I understand how the accelerator works basically. The one thing I just can't get answered and I have asked many people is this.

How do they know how many atoms are (hydrogen is most commonly used being it is a large heavy atom) are in the accelerator?

Is the atom really seen after it is smashed?

Can the single atom really be seen?

Or, is this all theory in they only know how much many (possibly thousands) weigh and that they calculate out what one "may" weigh.

I am stuck at the point of understanding EXACTLY what they do with the tool. The "general" information I have been able to find just isn't enough for me.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2004, 01:12 AM
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the machine will work with a single particle, or a mass of many particles. Depends on what kind of study you are doing how many you would accelerate, usually your impact object is what would limit reactions/outcome, so more accelerated particles could be used.

I'm a little rusty as this is all from memory from about 2 years ago, but basically you have an electron gun that fires the electron beam into the cyclotron, and then a switching magnetic field (generated by your standard 60hz house power (i think)) and this will accelerate the particles very rapidly, then you need to accomodate for relativity if you get fast enough and phase the magnets different to accomodate for the whole time slows down as you apporach C thing. The larger around the accelerator the less change in velocity (takes into account direction) and therefore you can get them going faster (there is a terminal speed in a given diameter of accelerator).

The atom itself is probably never seen (they don't get any bigger), the energy of the atom or release of energy is what could be observed, and or particles and antiparticles resulting from impact, positrons, alpha particles, ect.

The use for a particle accelerator is vast, you can use them for alot of types of experiments, and most are used probably for more than one purpose depending on who is using the machine. If you want to break something apart or make something very excited, a particle accelerator may be what you are looking for.

On a related note, Canada has got a new particle accelerator that i heard about on the news lately, to be used only as a light source (think electromagnetic waves) for scientific studies. (http://www.cls.usask.ca/)

edit: jumped over to howstuffworks and found this if anyone is interested http://science.howstuffworks.com/atom-smasher.htm
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Old 11-22-2004, 04:10 AM
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Good God , it does not need to be this complicated.
People that write these books make it that way so they can never be wrong (wishy washy) Were talking about a core resin here that when it turns into a gallon there may be 5-15 different items mixed with it. They will all be different like polyester into body filler, they can be made different.

Do keep in mine as I see some crossover here because you have people going on line to scramble for info.

Epoxy Paint, Epoxy Primer, Epoxy fiber glass, epoxy molding compound, epoxy adhesive. are different and can be kicked different.

Activation is different in epoxy paint vs epoxy fiberglass. Many options and totally different.

Simple example- epoxy primer must be mixed exact ratio.
Epoxy paint can have (depending how set up) off ratio from 5%- 70%.
Epoxy fiberglass will cure off ratio but like i said before there are many different formulations, some very specialized normal run of the mill formulation would cure out up 40-50% off ratio.
Same as a body filler.
Epoxy adhesive, highly concentrated off ratio 2% can cause major problems. Epoxy molding compound 1% off can be a disaster.
In short many ways to formulate it.

Food for thought, the person that first said epoxy was the exact same thing as polyesters is now a master at activating epoxy so I ask what if its a 1% epoxy solution in fiberglass how about 25%? 100's of possibility's. How you going to activate and that the way the real world is, no two the same.
The books will never make it clear, that is for sure.

Last edited by BarryK; 11-22-2004 at 05:05 AM.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-22-2004, 06:26 AM
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Wow, this thread got out of hand in a hurry. I asked about wrinkled fiberglass and got an explaination of particle accelerators

Thanks for all your replies guys.
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Old 11-22-2004, 08:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dubz
the machine will work with a single particle, or a mass of many particles. Depends on what kind of study you are doing how many you would accelerate, usually your impact object is what would limit reactions/outcome, so more accelerated particles could be used.
This gets to the heart of my question, how do they "control", "Handle", "Manipulate" that single atom??


Every time I read something on the subject I get a few more pieces to the puzzle. I drive my wife nuts because when we go to Lawrence Hall of Science museum I go into the Earnest Lawrence room and read everything and watch all the videos over again. Like your post, every time I learn something more. My point on how you handle the atom or atoms is what is getting me. I look at his first cyclotron and it literally looks like it was made in my garage. This is not a complex piece of equipment, it is actually very simple in design. Something I could make (or at least it seems) yet I have NO grasp of how you would "control" these atoms. I mean, I picture a guy scraping iron atoms off a block of metal with a microscopic knife into the little tray on that particle matter scale. The scale is also, very primitive by today's standards. It looks like something I could make, but again, I am absolutely clueless on how one would "maintain control" of the atoms used in the experiment.

Quote:
Originally posted by BarryK
Good God , it does not need to be this complicated.
People that write these books make it that way so they can never be wrong (wishy washy) Were talking about a core resin here that when it turns into a gallon there may be 5-15 different items mixed with it. They will all be different like polyester into body filler, they can be made different.
Now, that makes a lot of sense. The CORE epoxy resin makes for a lot of different epoxy products, each having different mixing ratio sensitivity.

But the polyester is still just curing by heat right? And "some of" the epoxy is doing the same thing?

Last edited by MARTINSR; 11-22-2004 at 08:30 AM.
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Old 11-22-2004, 11:16 AM
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I can attest to that! I don't know how many $$ quarts of polyester gel coat I have forgotten and left in my shop over the 100F summers here in B'field only to open them to find a rock solid paper weight inside. They completely solidified over time w/ medium environmental temperature w/o catalyst. Conversely, I have a two bottle epoxy resin tablet top coating that I have had in the shop for at least 8 years and both bottle are still liquid and I assume still reactive.

I have never used the vinyl ester resin mentioned previously in this thread but I understand it is even more environmentally reactive and is made only in small batches, on-order because it auto-polymerizes so readily.

Oh, and I now store my polyester resin in the house where temperature is more moderate.
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Old 11-22-2004, 11:26 AM
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It can get confusing.

What about epoxy resin with photocell initiators single component and all it takes is light to cure.
Or a partial mix with a two part.

Waterborne single component or a few companies years ago had a 2-part water Bourne.

What about a 10% epoxy mixed with a polyester resin.
With no polyamines. it will work great and make the polyester more flexible and if colored will allow easier buffing.
What if you went 20%- your losing ground and its getting weaker. The 10% solution the epoxy would take on the roll of a flex agent, Remember this is two totally different systems.

1000's of ways to make it with each being a slght change
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Old 11-22-2004, 11:53 AM
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Quote:
Originally posted by Dubz
the machine will work with a single particle, or a mass of many particles. Depends on what kind of study you are doing how many you would accelerate, usually your impact object is what would limit reactions/outcome, so more accelerated particles could be used.

I'm a little rusty as this is all from memory from about 2 years ago, but basically you have an electron gun that fires the electron beam into the cyclotron, and then a switching magnetic field (generated by your standard 60hz house power (i think)) and this will accelerate the particles very rapidly, then you need to accomodate for relativity if you get fast enough and phase the magnets different to accomodate for the whole time slows down as you apporach C thing. The larger around the accelerator the less change in velocity (takes into account direction) and therefore you can get them going faster (there is a terminal speed in a given diameter of accelerator).

The atom itself is probably never seen (they don't get any bigger), the energy of the atom or release of energy is what could be observed, and or particles and antiparticles resulting from impact, positrons, alpha particles, ect.

The use for a particle accelerator is vast, you can use them for alot of types of experiments, and most are used probably for more than one purpose depending on who is using the machine. If you want to break something apart or make something very excited, a particle accelerator may be what you are looking for.

On a related note, Canada has got a new particle accelerator that i heard about on the news lately, to be used only as a light source (think electromagnetic waves) for scientific studies. (http://www.cls.usask.ca/)

edit: jumped over to howstuffworks and found this if anyone is interested http://science.howstuffworks.com/atom-smasher.htm
Allright doesnt switzerland have the biggest particle accelrator in the world somewhere in the swiss alps?
So what good does it help you to see particles of Carbon fly around and clash to explode?







Mike
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