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Old 10-06-2009, 03:23 PM
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Wrinkling paint question for the painters on here (Nason 2k base)

I have a 96 civic that I am currently in the process of repainting. I used Nason 2k primer on it, sanded and then applied Nason 2k base.

The problem is that I am getting wrinkles in the paint on the front bumper when applying the base coat. I purchased a new front bumper that came primed, but for some reason the primer would come off when I used Dupont surface prep/cleaner. I didn't want to prime over that, so I decided to take laquer thinner and thoroughly strip the front bumper. After this, I cleaned it with water then alcohol. I Bulldogged the bumper and applied primer, and it looked great! However, when I started applying my base coat yesterday, I noticed HUGE wrinkles forming in the paint, but only on the front bumper. I immediately thought "surface contamination" and then cleaned and sanded out the wrinkles. Reprimed, reshot the bumper a few hours later. Same thing. Stripped the bad spots today and thoroughly cleaned with alcohol, and then I tried applying Bulldog again. After I went to apply my second coat of Bulldog 5 minutes later, I noticed that the Bulldog was wrinkling just like the paint had done earlier.

I am really at a loss here, does anyone have any ideas?

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Old 10-07-2009, 07:56 AM
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Sounds like the mold release agent is in the bumper.
It sometimes is a problem.
I'm not sure what the answer is, myself, I would clean it real good
by washing with detergent. like Dawn dishwashing liquid, then
use epoxy primer to seal it up, and wait at least 24 hrs before painting it.
Also, don't use any wax and grease remover on bare plastic,
same thing with lacquer thinner.
Some plastics will become a problem after useing either one of those,
it just drives the mold release agent into the plastic and will continue
to cause problems like you're talking about.
It's really hard to get it clean once that's done.
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Old 10-09-2009, 09:47 AM
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Well, wet sanded out all the wrinkles using some Dawn, cleaned it thoroughly with Dawn and water, rinsed, and then wiped down with alcohol. Will let it dry for a few hours and Bulldog it again then prime. Hopefully the entire car will be based and cleared tomorrow, provided the wrinkles are gone.


Thanks for the suggestion
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Old 10-10-2009, 06:38 AM
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Did you scuff the bumper so the primer will stick? if so mould release is the problem.Plastic bumper prep (viniger) will take care of it.In the past I've used etching primer with very good results.
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Old 10-10-2009, 07:31 AM
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yeah, the entire bumper was scuffed. The initial coat of primer went on fine which is why it was puzzling. So you say to use vinegar in order to prep plastic. hmmmmm
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:54 AM
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Odd seeing is how the primer didn't do anything funny. Looks as if the 2k basecoat is hotter than the 2k primer (maybe?)...causing the base to react to the primer and in return the primer to react to the bumper.

Is the bumper plastic or urethane? If it's a urethane bumper you have to either bake it or put it out in the sun for a few hours to release the chemicals from the mold. I believe that from factory those bumpers are urethane.
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Old 10-10-2009, 08:55 AM
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I personally don't like to touch it with anything but automotive paint products.

"Wrinkling" is solvents getting UNDER a substrate, PERIOD. The primer you had on there was a 1K, that is why it wiped off with the thinner.

If ANY of it remained then it could be the problem. What primer did you apply over the Bulldog? Was it a 1K or a 2K? It could have some thin areas, where you sanded it thin or where it was applied thin.

Wrinkling is caused as a said from solvents getting UNDER the substrate, either from soaking thru, or from getting under and edge or sand thru.

Simply applying the next product (in this case, your paint) a little drier OR using a faster solvent, OR allowing more time between coats, OR ANYTHING that will keep the coats drier so you can build up a "shell" over the sensitive stuff that is wrinkling can work wonders.

After you get a good "shell" over the sensitive stuff with a few coats of color you "could" be home free.

The RIGHT WAY is to remove the wrinkling stuff completely, I am just saying you can save a mess and a lot of work simply by applying product drier.

Brian
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeremyb
Odd seeing is how the primer didn't do anything funny. Looks as if the 2k basecoat is hotter than the 2k primer (maybe?)...causing the base to react to the primer and in return the primer to react to the bumper.


We don't know that the primer is 2K. It could also have been applied too thin so it isn't a barrier. It could also have not been thoroughly flashed off when the color was applied allowing the solvents from the color to soak back thru the primer and UNDER it which is what wrinkling is.

I keep going back to that point that wrinkling is solvents getting UNDER the substrate for a reason. To solve a wrinkling problem is all about stopping the solvent from getting UNDER a substrate. If one looks at it with that in mind the answers come. Where exactly is it wrinkling, did I sand that area thin? Could there be I remember that I didn't get all the junk primer off in that spot? Is it an area where I applied more primer than everywhere else and it didn't fully flash in that area?

Keeping in mind that ANYTHING that could cause the solvents from the paint to get UNDER a substrate could be at fault here helps find the sollution.

Brian
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:14 AM
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He says in the first post that he applied 2k primer then 2k base. Now obviously the primer that came on the bumper is 1k since he could wipe it off, right?

The more i think about it the more it sounds just like a sand through problem where the primer has been sanded through down to the bare material of the bumper.
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Old 10-10-2009, 09:21 AM
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I'm sorry I went back and read it and missed that first line! Yep, wrinkling is caused by solvents getting under or thru a substrate lifting it. (Did I mention that?)

So sanding the primer thin would do it.

Brian
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stock2mal
yeah, the entire bumper was scuffed. The initial coat of primer went on fine which is why it was puzzling. So you say to use vinegar in order to prep plastic. hmmmmm
The plastic prep (mould release remover)I use smells like vineger,about 80% I'd say... I never used viniger to prep a bumper but some of the old timers say it's great for preping aluminum and galvinized,I've never used it for that ether,I merly stated plastic preps are most deffinetly mostly vineger It makes sence since its an acid, But I scuff with the plastic prep,keeping the scuff pad nice and wet...My next move if it was me would be to remove everything again try the mould release remover one more time and use a thin coat of etching primer,followed immediately by a non sanding sealer,two coats if needed then paint....I never use a primer that has to be sanded on bumpers,it dosent make sence to make more work for yourself.You can bet the factory dosent sand them ether.Mould release is just what it sounds like : a waxy substance that prevents the bumper from sticking to the mould,It absolutly has to come off.One other thing, those el cheapo bumpers only use a spraycan type primer(laquer)...All of that primer has to come off(use laquer thinner)I dont have many problems with Keystone bumpers its the other cheapo's that'll give you grief.Wear gloves when using laquer thinner and mould release remover...The stuff I use burns if it gets in a cut or hangnail..

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Old 10-10-2009, 11:22 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman
The plastic prep (mould release remover)I use smells like viniger,about 80% I'd say... I never used viniger to prep a bumper but some of the old timers say it's great for preping aluminum and galvinized,I've never used it for that ether,I merly stated plastic preps are most deffinetly mostly viniger It makes sence since its an acid, But I scuff with the plastic prep,keeping the scuff pad nice and wet...My next move if it was me would be to remove everything again try the mould release remover one more time and use a thin coat of etching primer,followed immediately by a non sanding sealer,two coats if needed then paint....I never use a primer that has to be sanded on bumpers,it dosent make sence to make more work for yourself.You can bet the factory dosent sand them ether.Mould release is just what it sounds like : a waxy substance that prevents the bumper from sticking to the mould,It absolutly has to come off.One other thing, those el cheapo bumpers only use a spraycan type primer(laquer)...All of that primer has to come off(use laquer thinner)I dont have many problems with Keystone bumpers its the other cheapo's that'll give you grief.
Your right, that some of these bumpers can really be a pain. But honestly, etch primer is not meant for plastic, it etches metal. A plastic adhesion promotor like Bulldog is the product to use.

Brian
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Old 10-10-2009, 11:47 AM
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I've had this problem before and I know what etching primer is... What I'm saying is ....This works,I've done it...I also dont take chances I'll test out an idea before tring it out on a car. If I say it works its not just some crazy thought,It works and I've acually done it.
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:06 PM
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The primer that came on the bumper was black, and the fenders and hood I ordered from the same company also came with black primer. I didn't have a problem with the primer on these parts coming off, but I didn't use lacquer thinner on them either. The bumper is also plastic, not urethane.

The primer I used was Nason 2k primer (not etching primer). I am going to finish the car today and strip the bumper down to the plastic next week after I take it off the car. Bulldog on the bumper continues to cause the primer to wrinkle, so I am guessing there is crap trapped underneath that is the culprit.

Everything else is looking pretty good so far, so hopefully it turns out ok.

I really appreciate all the help you have given so far, it has been very beneficial.

Hopefully I will have some pics to share in a few days.
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Old 10-10-2009, 12:25 PM
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Is this a customers car? I've found that sometimes the paint will peel off those hoods if you dont sand that primer off and reprime with some good stuff.it might take a few months,if its your car you'll know what to do if it happens.
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