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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2012, 09:59 AM
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also your 370 horse power 327 will sound different than a more powerful engine.
things that also count
bore size and stroke. alloys in heads and block ,
intake shape/design and volume,
combustion chamber size/shape/spark plug location and orientation,
header materials,ie stainless/mild steel and wall thickness
compression ratio makes a huge difference in sound'
everything else also counts,but to a lesser degree like Pipe length and volume for entire system
push rod engines sound different from ohc

have fun designing

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2012, 11:04 AM
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" hell by your crank theory a air-cooled VW 1600 should sound like a Ferrari... "
Actually, no. A VW fires two cylinders on one side of the engine, then fires two cylinders on the other side of the engine.

VW numbers banks of cylinders, like Ford. Right side front, #1, right side rear, #2, left side front #3, left side rear #4. VW firing order, 1, 4, 3, 2. Or starting with #4, 4, 3, 2, 1. two left, two right.

Because a Ferrari has 8 cylinders on a 90 degree V, with a 180 degree crankshaft, it has to alternate each bank to fire every 90 degrees of crankshaft rotation.
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Old 11-28-2012, 11:17 AM
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danielc a 4 cylinder,low compression,air cooled vw boxer engine with ohv sounds nothing at all like a 11:1,dohc,water cooled,fuel injected,boxer...even with 4 into 1 muffler with 2 tail pipes
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Old 11-28-2012, 02:01 PM
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Bogie, thanks.

To all else, to quote the bowl of petunias "oh no not a again"
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Old 11-28-2012, 04:46 PM
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"danielc a 4 cylinder,low compression,air cooled vw boxer engine with ohv sounds nothing at all like a 11:1,dohc,water cooled,fuel injected,boxer...even with 4 into 1 muffler with 2 tail pipes "

I never said it did.

AP72 said that a VW engine should sound like a Ferrari, based on my comment about the Ferrari getting its sound from the 180 degree crank it has.
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Old 11-28-2012, 05:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielC View Post
"danielc a 4 cylinder,low compression,air cooled vw boxer engine with ohv sounds nothing at all like a 11:1,dohc,water cooled,fuel injected,boxer...even with 4 into 1 muffler with 2 tail pipes "

I never said it did.

AP72 said that a VW engine should sound like a Ferrari, based on my comment about the Ferrari getting its sound from the 180 degree crank it has.
And the point still stands, a flat crank has nothing to do with it. If the compression and firing order bother you then compare a Subaru to a Ferrari- still not even close.
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Old 11-28-2012, 06:09 PM
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Really OMG im wrong.

Ferrari spends millions of dollars to tune there exhuast. This is a well known fact. One quick google search will clear that up.

Your exhuast pulse theroy is great theroy. But a 8 into 1 that comes on most passenger cars puts a pretty big dent in it.

Most of them sounds the same v6 to v12 not just the v8. The exhuast note is very important.

I used to help a guy that sold ferrari exhaust systems. Must have seen two hundred of them. Cant remeber one with an x pipe. Usally just two straight cross overs. But what do i know i didnt even use capital letters.

4-7 swap have you herd of it. This does change the sound of the engine lots of ppl on youtube have videos.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 02:43 AM
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Why don't you tell that to Reeves Callaway, perhaps your experience surpasses his as well?

Maserati has used ferrari engines since they were bought out by fiat. They use a cross plane crankshaft instead of a flat plane. They also use tri-y headers factory and an x pipe further back toward the mufflers.

I worked on these cars for 10 years. I know what they have. You may have sold them but that means nothing. Have you ever had a flat 12 ferrari motor all tore apart? I doubt it.

Oh and just so you can see for yourself....
Ferrari/Maserati engine - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
http://cars-database.com/data_images...rati-v8-03.jpg
a similar snarl that the Corsa gives the Domestic V8
A New V8 Engine Powers the Maserati GranTurismo S - ATZ online
there is your x pipe guy...
08 Maserati Gran Turismo 4.2 complete exhaust mufflers silencers | eBay
The illustration shows Exh mani as a 4 into 1 design, shorty, primaries appear to be equal length. X pipe is a ways downstream.....
http://www.maseratispares.com/1998-h...es/492_023.jpg

same 136 engine only the tipo f136 has a flat plane.

What they tell you on google is marketing bull**** about them tuning the mufflers. There is so little time put into that its ridiculous. There is plenty of time spent on the exhaust manifolds (including collectors) as well as i am sure the placement of the x pipe.

also when I said 4 cyl (at ap72) i should have said a inline 4 cylinder. flat motors or "boxers" have a different sound all on their own. part of why a subaru and the vw motor you are talking about sound like **** (to be blunt) is the power design of the exhaust manifolds. the porsche motors have done significantly better in their manifold design for both performance and sound.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2012, 02:46 AM
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the alfa uses the same cross plane motor as the maserati. very similar. I am sure the slight differences of video quality and the bends in the exhaust that differ between the two can attest to the very slight difference in sound.- still sounds like a domestic with corsa's and an x pipe.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:00 AM
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How about we turn to something that takes a traditional 90 degree motor (with itbs, dohc heads, and di) that uses tri-y headers and an x pipe factory.

The s65 bmw motor is a lovely motor.
sounds like a small block chev on the dyno to me, buts its the bmw m3 s65 v8.

compare that to this full exhaust system by ipe f1
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbT0IqFIfnc

compare that to this

and lastly compare those to this

there really has to be more to it than the natural sound of the motor... i agree that it is more than JUST one thing. I never said it was JUST one thing that makes the sound of the motor.

"The crank pin offset is 90į, and for design reasons, a cylinder firing order of 1-5-4-8-7-2-6-3 was chosen
for the S65, instead of the typical 1-5-4-8-6-3-7-2 firing order more commonly employed in other BMW V8 engines."
if you can make some sense of that- its odd "Cylinder numbering is 1 through 4 on passenger (right) side and 5 through 8 on driver (left) side. numbers 1 and 5 are at the front, 4 and 8 are at the rear."
BMW Engine Firing Order and Cylinder Location (Bank-1, Bank-2), 4-cylinder, 6-cylinder, V8, V12 | Bavarian Autosport Blog

Apparently, the fireing order is the same as the BMW Sauber F1 team v8.

check out this s65 header. looks like a tri-y to me, what do you think?
http://img364.imageshack.us/img364/3289/dscn0632nb7.jpg

Exhaust System Technology: Science and Implementation of High Performance Exhaust Systems

http://www.billswebspace.com/DinanE9...signReview.pdf
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9u6jI3lRCw
The x pipe from the above video.
http://maxcdn.nexternal.com/aaw/images/Large252.jpg

I think the only reason that the ipe f1 exhaust is higher has to be that x pipe design. which is shown in the following link
http://i244.photobucket.com/albums/g...917_221533.jpg
http://i.imgur.com/batEA.jpg
(not to scale dims) Note the taper of the x pipe and the hole that makes the air pass through a smaller opening on two ends. If you look very close at the x pipe design, its ALMOST as if its two x pipes in one.
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b8...imsactual2.jpg
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:07 AM
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No one thing to consider is the are resonators that cancel out particular noise. this is what Corsa mufflers do. The have chambers in the mufflers (which is more like an instrument than a traditional muffler) that are helmholtz resonators that are VERY small. They shoot for 3 particular resonate frequencies to cancel out. Now one thing about frequency is that it peaks, there is a range at the peak. The range will depend on many things and without actual testing it is not possible to know the range with math (that i am aware of to date).

Helmholtz resonance - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

In use on an exhaust system
Capped Helmholtz chamber (Drone Eliminator)

Now if you actually understand the above link you will see that they are utilizing a Helmholtz Resonator and then packing around it with fiberglass to bring down the vibration(vibration of any kind will bring the volume of the devise up- so this muffles it).

the purpous of a "muffler" is to MUFFLE sound not change the actual tone.

the corsa i wouldn't even call a muffler per say. I would say it is more similar to the dr. gas freq mod, but a better design.
FreqMod Mufflers
corsa cut away
http://s938.beta.photobucket.com/use...tml?sort=3&o=0

I should also note that ferrari motors that have a 180 crankshaft do not require an x pipe to merge the exhaust pules efficiently because they already do that naturally with the design of the crankshaft (and firing order of course that goes along with it).

Last edited by blight; 11-29-2012 at 03:30 AM.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:13 AM
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So as you can see. There is more to it than you know. It sounds to me that Bogie is familiar with all the things That I just posted.

I am not trying to be a jerk but when people claim they "know" something that they do not it ticks me off. I have spent the last 8 months or more studying this subject. Using physics, experimentation, contacting multiple "big names" (vizard, and callaway as an example), and many other forms of research.

I am not saying this is the end all of the subject. There is plenty more~ that I will not waste my time posting. I don't post that often for this particular reason. it would be a waste of my time to try to explain every little aspect that i found along the way.

Bogie answered my question to the best of his ability with out the bologna. As far as I see it this is the end of the subject to me seeing that my question was answered.
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Old 11-29-2012, 03:34 AM
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oh as for the 180 header. I suppose I should post this- one of many, videos of a sbc with 180s sounding exotic as they do. The kelmarks, grant gts, and many other cars use these headers as well (gt40s too).

I did forget to mention that (as far as i know) all inline 4s use a flat plane crankshaft.

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Old 11-29-2012, 07:02 AM
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I still think there is something to the 180 crankshaft in a Ferarri. It alternates cylinder banks firing evenly.
A 90 degree V-8 engine with a 90 degree crankshaft fires banks in this order, (Ford) Right, left, right, right, left, right, left, left., or right, right, left, right, left, left, right, left.

I am a little familiar with a Helmholtz resonator. I built two Subwoofers for live sound, that are ported 14 cubic foot boxes, with two Electro-voice DL-18-W speakers in them. These boxes have a flat frequency response down to 34 Hertz, and drop off as 12 DB, per octave below that. I run the crossover frequency about 150 HZ.
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Old 11-29-2012, 07:44 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielC View Post
I still think there is something to the 180 crankshaft in a Ferarri. It alternates cylinder banks firing evenly.
A 90 degree V-8 engine with a 90 degree crankshaft fires banks in this order, (Ford) Right, left, right, right, left, right, left, left., or right, right, left, right, left, left, right, left.

I am a little familiar with a Helmholtz resonator. I built two Subwoofers for live sound, that are ported 14 cubic foot boxes, with two Electro-voice DL-18-W speakers in them. These boxes have a flat frequency response down to 34 Hertz, and drop off as 12 DB, per octave below that. I run the crossover frequency about 150 HZ.
but whats the port tuned to?
nice post number ..
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