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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2013, 10:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alberatzi View Post
Hey everyone!

I have a '66 Galaxie 500 w/a 289; my cam is as follows:
Lift: .448"/.472"
Adv. Duration: 262/272
My car is a cruiser, I'm going to be running duals from factory manifolds & I have no plans to do any kind of racing, but I also want to get as much power out of what I have; so which one do I want to go with?
Forget the big cam on the little V8 and just go to a 390.

Bogie

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2013, 10:51 AM
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Test by Heartthrob

Wow, I saw the same blurb with Hearthrob guy, and it mighta been on Stacy's show, but just a couple days ago.....they dynoed (chassis dyno) both ways, and the H was significantly higher HP than the X .....I was surprised, as I thought for sure the X would have a better flow....
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2013, 11:27 AM
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Well it almost appears that some of the usual suspects have succeeded in driving away one more new member by not answering his question and telling him all he needs is a bigger engine/cam/carb/mufflers/rear gears, you name it. I'm sure he would like to exchange that 289 for a mega monster - but that's not what he want to do for whatever reasons. He may have become a valued, contributing member of Hotrodders, but suspect he will go elsewhere as so many others have.

DUMB

My answer to his question - Most likely neither 'H' or 'X' will totally stop exhaust popping if the mufflers are straight through types.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2013, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigMo View Post
Wow, I saw the same blurb with Hearthrob guy, and it mighta been on Stacy's show, but just a couple days ago.....they dynoed (chassis dyno) both ways, and the H was significantly higher HP than the X .....I was surprised, as I thought for sure the X would have a better flow....
I wouldn't take that as one being ipso-facto better than the other. There are factors other than the cross over at work so each system you use will be sensitive to something other than their configuration. Exhaust systems are still very much a cut and try proposition this is a place where the math can only get to an approximation.

You've got two major things going on with exhaust systems:

1) Is the reduction in back pressure by selection of streamlined and high flow components.

2) is wave propagation and management so if the engine is using a cam with a lot of overlap the tuning of pressure waves can be used to assist the induction by reflecting a returning exhaust pressure wave back into the exhaust system which will lower cylinder pressure which will then draw harder in the intake when both intake and exhaust valves are open. David Vizard in his writings on this subject calls this the 5th cycle of a 4 cycle engine. But this is super quirky the returning exhaust wave must be timed exactly to the valves overlap for that particular cylinder. This means it is:
A) RPM sensitive as well as;
B) Mach velocity sensitive;
C) And pipe distance sensitive.

A) Basically means that the combination effect of B and C will align at some RPMs and not at others. So the effect will be seen strong at some RPMs to little or none at others.

B) Is the Mach velocity (speed of sound) of the waves in the exhaust system.
The complicating factor here is that the speed of sound with in a gas is very dependent upon temperature and pressure. Since these two things are constantly changing within the header tubes and collector let alone the rest of the exhaust system. So calculations based upon the simple text book speed of sound at standard atmospheric pressure and temperature can at best only get you into the ball park but not necessarily into the game.

C) Is the distance that the wave has to travel from where it trips back to the valve. This in all likelihood goes beyond the effects of measured pipe lengths to where the event actually moves around inside the pipe based on temperatures of the plumbing itself as well as the exhaust gasses inside. If you will a virtual change of distance even though the physical hasn't changed at least not by much as it heats and cools.

My best guess on the paint or wax burning on the collector as indicating the optimum location for a cross over is it may be where the reflected wave is colliding with the transmitted wave with-in the collector. For typical wave reflection the H pipe is usually closer to the engine where X pipes tend to be further away. Further away means lower temperatures and pressures as well as greater distance and that probably reduces the strength of the wave's pressure pulse simply from a greater length having more surface drag. But the X pipe probably shows less overall backpressure which is a different issue.
In the end which configuration that shows the most benefit will vary by the specific installation configuration which will also be sensitive to pipe diameters as well as the entire foregoing epistle.

Bogie
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 03-05-2013, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Irelands child View Post
Well it almost appears that some of the usual suspects have succeeded in driving away one more new member by not answering his question and telling him all he needs is a bigger engine/cam/carb/mufflers/rear gears, you name it. I'm sure he would like to exchange that 289 for a mega monster - but that's not what he want to do for whatever reasons. He may have become a valued, contributing member of Hotrodders, but suspect he will go elsewhere as so many others have.

DUMB

My answer to his question - Most likely neither 'H' or 'X' will totally stop exhaust popping if the mufflers are straight through types.
I had a good friend that bought one of those 66 galaxie's when they were new cars with the 289 then regretted it and tried all the hot rod tricks to force a little engine to move a really huge, heavy car. I'll be one to admit to suffering from the scarcasim of having been there, done that and didn't think the outcome was worth the time, cost or effort. Even that big and fancy exhaust system is going to cost a lot of money and not solve the problem, more likely to make it even worse but of course it will transfer to a bigger engine in the future.

The problem is insufficient torque from a 289 with which to launch this 4000 pound monster. Adding camshaft will degrade what torque this engine has right where it's needed the most. I suppose that with the cam he can add gears to move the RPM band up where the horsepower is being made in sufficient quantitiy to overcome the lack of lower end torque. But my experience in these matters tells me that for a Saturday night cruiser he'll be happier by cutting through the chase and going with a 351 keeping it in the engine family or going to the then optional FE block preferably at 390 but 352 would do while 410 to 428 would be a dream to putt behind on main street. Perhaps even the 302, which is a stroker on the 289, would help put some force-in-motion where it's needed.

Bogie
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 03-12-2013, 05:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alberatzi View Post
Hey everyone!

I have a '66 Galaxie 500 w/a 289; my cam is as follows:
Lift: .448"/.472"
Adv. Duration: 262/272
My car is a cruiser, I'm going to be running duals from factory manifolds & I have no plans to do any kind of racing, but I also want to get as much power out of what I have; so which one do I want to go with?


I would use straight duals with Magnaflow glass packs... The H pipe sounds better to me then the X. I just don't see the need for one, they add weight and heat the transmission area. They make a V-8 sound like a 6 with a single exhaust and glass pack to me...

Those 289s are nice sounding motors with duals and a pair of packs, good luck....
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 07:34 AM
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Dying stroker Dave.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Irelands child View Post
Straight from Flowmaster (and similar to what I've seen elsewhere when I researched for my '31). The bolding is mine.

"Is an "X" pipe better than and "H" pipe?

Not necessarily. Flowmaster has performed extensive dyno testing of traditional H pipes and various X pipe designs and has found that in most typical street applications, there are no clear benefits of one over the other. X pipes have become a buzz word in the world of performance exhaust, and are now produced in a wide variety of styles and designs. Some types perform well, and some others can be quite bad due to the excessive turbulence generated in the merge area. Unlike anything else available, Flowmasters Scavenger X-Pipe design features patented D-port technology to maximize the communication surface area between the two banks of cylinders, and maintain the exhaust pulse velocity for peak scavenging. In terms of sound, an X-pipe will generally provide a smoother, higher pitched tone than that of a traditional H crossover pipe. In some specialized race applications such as small cubic inch engines and /or restricted (small bore) carburetors, we have found that an X pipe can respond well over an H pipe. As with all race applications, there is no substitute for time on the dyno, developing the engine package as a system."
Hi Dave.
had an interesting drive home today in the 67. While driving down a gentle slope, after a short run to the supermarket, I lost ignition and coasted to a stop. Hmmmm.With nearly 2000 miles on the new 347 i am puzzled. With the gas tank on a quarter, and power to the coil, i can crank it over ( until i flattened the battery) with plenty of fuel squirting down the barrels and yet not even a fire from any plug. I am thinking the msd may have a problem in it so i will start there i think. I have 12v at the blaster 2 msd coil as well. Any thoughts Dave.
My wife towed me about 2 miles home with her corolla.
Cheers
Al.
Al.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 08:12 AM
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Originally Posted by 67Mustang Al. View Post
Hi Dave.
had an interesting drive home today in the 67. While driving down a gentle slope, after a short run to the supermarket, I lost ignition and coasted to a stop. Hmmmm.With nearly 2000 miles on the new 347 i am puzzled. With the gas tank on a quarter, and power to the coil, i can crank it over ( until i flattened the battery) with plenty of fuel squirting down the barrels and yet not even a fire from any plug. I am thinking the msd may have a problem in it so i will start there i think. I have 12v at the blaster 2 msd coil as well. Any thoughts Dave.
My wife towed me about 2 miles home with her corolla.
Cheers
Al.
Al.
Al - pull a plug wire at the cap or the plug, hold either close to the cap tower or to the plug or ground, crank the engine over and you should see a fat blue spark, either at the cap terminal or to ground if at the plug. DO NOT hang on to that wire - I can attest to the fact that 40K volts can light up your life if the box is not your problem (We probably should start another thread too, instead of a hijack)

(I hope none of your friends saw that ignominious event of an econobox hauling the 'stang home )

Dave W
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by 67Mustang Al. View Post
Hi Dave.
had an interesting drive home today in the 67. While driving down a gentle slope, after a short run to the supermarket, I lost ignition and coasted to a stop. Hmmmm.With nearly 2000 miles on the new 347 i am puzzled. With the gas tank on a quarter, and power to the coil, i can crank it over ( until i flattened the battery) with plenty of fuel squirting down the barrels and yet not even a fire from any plug. I am thinking the msd may have a problem in it so i will start there i think. I have 12v at the blaster 2 msd coil as well. Any thoughts Dave.
My wife towed me about 2 miles home with her corolla.
Cheers
Al.
Al.
It is imperative with MSD to tie the cylinder heads to ground by cable in addition to a block ground. There is so much energy from these systems that the old idea that the head bolts will provide sufficient ground path just doesn't hold any more. Each head needs a clean and dedicated ground path back to the battery. Whether that's directly to the battery or through a chassis connection doesn't matter other than any connection to the chassis needs to be clean and of low impedance (high conductivity); for the most part clean, free of corrosion, oil or grease and dirt pretty well defines a low impedance connection.

Lacking solid (electrically) grounds for the spark plugs; provides enough back EMF (Electromotive Force) by way of the ignition wires to fry the electronics.

Bogie
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 03-18-2013, 05:06 PM
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electric loss

Hi Dave and Bogie.
Yes to the earth from the heads to the firewall as well as block to chassis. I have oversize cables there with the rpm al heads. The battery is fully charged now after a night so its time to check the cranking spark as you say. I am waiting for the neighbourhood "word" to get back to me about the tow home.
I sat low in the seat.
I hope its not the module inside the distributor.
Thanks. I will update asap.
Cheers Al.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2013, 03:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 65 Imp SS View Post
Here are a couple of articles to check out:
Exhaust
I ended up running an x-pipe with a "warmed" over bbc (pic in avatar) and it is different from the norm dual exhaust but it does not even come close sounding like a v-6...
I recall reading Hand's take on X vs. H pipes, don't remember exactly where I saw it but IIRC he had graphs and such showing et/hp/back pressure or something like that. On his car the X was better- but you can test different cars and get different results, so IMO there is no clear "winner". In Hand's case, the difference was so great (over 1.5 tenths IIRC) that it makes me believe there were other problems besides just the difference between an H and an X. Anyway, I use H pipes because of the ease of fabrication.

FWIW I had a set of 3" Flowmaster 40's and like them just fine, tests be damned. They were what I found for a deal, I ran them, the car ran better than expected regardless of being "hampered" by the FM's. One concession I made to comfort over speed was to insulate it; I used recycled floor insulation out of the 'yard. Weighed a little but kept the drone and heat out.

But one thing I can GUARANTEE you- no one mistook it for a V6 unless they were brain dead!
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