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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2010, 10:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1975yellowC3
Couple of questions about decking a block.

I am going to be zero decking my block...I think. Here are my questions:

Do I need to mock up the engine before getting it decked to do an actual measurement before telling the machine shop how much to remove or is it "close enough" to do a stack up of the parts advertised dimensions and go with that? For instance, stack adds up to 9.001.....just tell them to take it to 9.001.

Can I tell the machine shop to just take the deck to 9 inches or do I have to tell them how much material to remove? (I think deck height is measured from the center of the crank and wasn't sure how they get that measurement if hand them a bare block?)

What is a ball park figure for the cost of decking the block?

I am sure these are easy questions as this is the first time having any machine work done to a block.

Levi

The simple answer is no you don't need to mock up the assembly to determine
your desired deck height. Good shops have centering fixtures such as a BHU Block-Tru that is indexed on both cam and main bores and can be used to establish a desired deck height while assuring that the decks are square and 90 degrees to each other.

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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 09-22-2010, 11:36 PM
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Quote:
If I had to fit every rotator to try to get zero deck I would have close the doors a long time ago
Ya know there are hundreds/thousands of pro shops in north America but there is only one shop that I work out of and thats my garage. I need help turning the metal down because I don't own a CWT MULTI-BAL 5000 but i'll be dammed and start knitting if I can't learn, practice and develop on my own.

Seems that we are comparing good home-school assembly techniques against pro shop race motor methodologies.

Although each view point may be valid it is a un necessary pissing match once again IMHO.

How would anything that tech posted screw someone up? Some guys including myself just want to build THERE OWN motors,,,man its unbelievable and I am not even living in Bolivia
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 12:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
If you go back and reread your advise its pretty lame as you should never bore any block off an unsquared deck thats just plain common sence.
I don't know how you bore your blocks, but you're making noises like you register off the decks. I haven't seen that done in a couple of decades. The block is set up to register off the main bearing bore and the block can be thusly bored without ever touching the decks with a cutting tool. Then the customer can pick up the block, take it home and proceed to find the piston deck heights with simple tools. Then the block goes back to the machine shop to be cut to square on the decks.

Of course the shop can do all this for the customer. I never said they couldn't. But there is more than one way to achieve the end result. Your way is not the only way and I wish you'd get over yourself.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 07:12 AM
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In cases where the engine is being rebuilt, I would measure the piston to deck on the four corners, and make note of the figures.

Then, after deciding on what piston/rod was going back in, I would ask for the deck to be machined- using the original figures taken at disassembly- as long as they fell within spec.

Now, this isn't for a high dollar race application. It is for the other 95% of the guys who rebuild their own engines and do not need to have the block blueprinted- which if done correctly (blueprinting, I mean) can be a very costly affair, depending on what is needed.

If I was working w/a bare block w/an unknown deck, I would have no problem doing a mock up after boring, before decking- as TI suggested.

This is not the "fast" way, nor is it particularly "efficient". But it assures that the decks will be where you want them to be, w/o incurring the costs associated w/blueprinting the block.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 01:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
I don't know how you bore your blocks, but you're making noises like you register off the decks. I haven't seen that done in a couple of decades. The block is set up to register off the main bearing bore and the block can be thusly bored without ever touching the decks with a cutting tool. Then the customer can pick up the block, take it home and proceed to find the piston deck heights with simple tools. Then the block goes back to the machine shop to be cut to square on the decks.

Of course the shop can do all this for the customer. I never said they couldn't. But there is more than one way to achieve the end result. Your way is not the only way and I wish you'd get over yourself.
First of all the main line should be addressed first if your that anal about a zero deck as everything referances of the main line.

Over 90% of the shops out there are using boring bars that bore off the decks and some shops even bore of the pan rails.

We bore of the cam and crank center lines and 45 degrees from there, We use a 4 axis CNC machine to so our work with.

Like I said there are a lot of shops still using boring bars.

If a guy has to fit up evryting to find zero deck then he is not dealing with the right machine shop that can measure stroke rod lenth and CH of the piston and machine the block from.

This is what we use to bore with
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
In cases where the engine is being rebuilt, I would measure the piston to deck on the four corners, and make note of the figures.

Then, after deciding on what piston/rod was going back in, I would ask for the deck to be machined- using the original figures taken at disassembly- as long as they fell within spec.

Now, this isn't for a high dollar race application. It is for the other 95% of the guys who rebuild their own engines and do not need to have the block blueprinted- which if done correctly (blueprinting, I mean) can be a very costly affair, depending on what is needed.
.

Interest you say coatly affair HMM

If a block is sent to us we sonic test first, clean and mag, line hone, deck, bore and plate hone, light hone on the lifter bores and stroker clearance if its going to be a stroker and final wash that runs 595.00

And what do you consider costly affair??

Having a guy bring his block to a shop and bore it, Them have either the guy drag it back home to fit everything up or have the shop do is going to cost alot of extra money. as most shops get 70 dollars an hour.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 02:46 PM
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I go w/my own measurements, tell the shop that when I get it back I'd like it clean, bored and decked "X" amount. The only occasion I would be dragging it back and forth would be if the block had come to me bare and for whatever reason I was unable to mock up a bottom end for it.

While $600 for that work is fine, a lot of guys do not want or need the mains or lifter bores honed. Some don't want the block decked. Hell, some guys don't care one way or the other about torque plates for honing- even though it has been shown time and again to be worthwhile. But sometimes the budget or intended use doesn't justify spending a penny more than absolutely necessary.

There are MANY guys running good right now w/a dingleberry honed block, w/standard OEM pistons w/new rings, a fresh set of bearings, cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump and a gasket set along w/a valve job. They don't have $500 in the whole deal.

As an example:

$190.00 "Master Kit" from Northern

$250.00 rebuild heads

For that matter, a NEW GM 350 block is $800. It'll need finish honed.

It all hinges on what is needed and what is on hand.

EDIT- Almost forgot to say what a nice looking block that is. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm guessing it would be just a skosh more than $600 for that work included w/the above.

Last edited by cobalt327; 09-23-2010 at 03:16 PM.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
Interest you say coatly affair HMM

If a block is sent to us we sonic test first, clean and mag, line hone, deck, bore and plate hone, light hone on the lifter bores and stroker clearance if its going to be a stroker and final wash that runs 595.00

And what do you consider costly affair??

Having a guy bring his block to a shop and bore it, Them have either the guy drag it back home to fit everything up or have the shop do is going to cost alot of extra money. as most shops get 70 dollars an hour.
Does that price include measuring the stroke on 4 throws on a used, reground crank? I'm not sure it was index ground or stroke corrected.

---And I have 8 rods, 2 are Oliver and 2 Carrillo and 4 Manley. They are all supposed to be 6".

---And I have 8 pistons, 2 are SRP and 6 are JE.

---Its already been balanced, but I want the deck height to be 0.000, +0.000, -0.001
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 03:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmsport
Does that price include measuring the stroke on 4 throws on a used, reground crank? I'm not sure it was index ground or stroke corrected.

---And I have 8 rods, 2 are Oliver and 2 Carrillo and 4 Manley. They are all supposed to be 6".

---And I have 8 pistons, 2 are SRP and 6 are JE.

---Its already been balanced, but I want the deck height to be 0.000, +0.000, -0.001
We have a gauge for checkeing the stroke which takes about 2 minutes or less to check.

We have a fixture for checking rod lenth as well.

CH is not the hard to check either.

With all those mismatched parts looks like you have been blowing up some engines. And I can see why

Sometimes its hard to make chicken soup out of chicken ****.

We don't use reground cranks in our performance builds!! Or missed matched rods or pistons.

No matter what you going to dek the block to the longest rod and highest CH

If you using JE pistons and they have a 1.250 CH you may want to check the CH of the SRP pistons most of those are 1.260 CH

Have fun!!!
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 04:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I go w/my own measurements, tell the shop that when I get it back I'd like it clean, bored and decked "X" amount. The only occasion I would be dragging it back and forth would be if the block had come to me bare and for whatever reason I was unable to mock up a bottom end for it.

While $600 for that work is fine, a lot of guys do not want or need the mains or lifter bores honed. Some don't want the block decked. Hell, some guys don't care one way or the other about torque plates for honing- even though it has been shown time and again to be worthwhile. But sometimes the budget or intended use doesn't justify spending a penny more than absolutely necessary.

There are MANY guys running good right now w/a dingleberry honed block, w/standard OEM pistons w/new rings, a fresh set of bearings, cam, lifters, timing set, oil pump and a gasket set along w/a valve job. They don't have $500 in the whole deal.

As an example:

$190.00 "Master Kit" from Northern

$250.00 rebuild heads

For that matter, a NEW GM 350 block is $800. It'll need finish honed.

It all hinges on what is needed and what is on hand.

EDIT- Almost forgot to say what a nice looking block that is. Correct me if I'm wrong here, but I'm guessing it would be just a skosh more than $600 for that work included w/the above.
After running the block through the bake and blast you don't have a choice but hone the lifter bores or you lifter won't go in the bores. If a gouy is serious about decking a block the main line should be done first.

Why would anyone wnat to run a 9.025 deck so far all the blocks I have machined no one has asked for a 9.025 deck block. Plus you not goint o finfd a GM block with both decks at 9.025 as I have never seen one yet.

Interesting though!!!
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
We have a gauge for checkeing the stroke which takes about 2 minutes or less to check.

We have a fixture for checking rod lenth as well.

CH is not the hard to check either.

With all those mismatched parts looks like you have been blowing up some engines. And I can see why

Sometimes its hard to make chicken soup out of chicken ****.

We don't use reground cranks in our performance builds!! Or missed matched rods or pistons.

No matter what you going to dek the block to the longest rod and highest CH

If you using JE pistons and they have a 1.250 CH you may want to check the CH of the SRP pistons most of those are 1.260 CH

Have fun!!!
So if I want you to deck my block, I have to buy a new crank, new pistons and new rods? I guess thats the difference between a hotrod engine and a racing engine.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 07:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CNC BLOCKS NE
After running the block through the bake and blast you don't have a choice but hone the lifter bores or you lifter won't go in the bores. If a gouy is serious about decking a block the main line should be done first.

Why would anyone wnat to run a 9.025 deck so far all the blocks I have machined no one has asked for a 9.025 deck block. Plus you not goint o finfd a GM block with both decks at 9.025 as I have never seen one yet.

Interesting though!!!
I'm not too sure where the idea came from, to run a 9.025" deck. The idea was to relate a number for the shop to use that puts the decks where they need to be- and it has never been 9.025" in my experience. But then, it's never been a straight up 9" either.

It would be a nice luxury to have a blueprinted block for every engine. As long as the specs fall within the (rather "relaxed") GM factory limits, I generally call it good to go.

What is the story on the CNC'ed block above?
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 08:21 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
I'm not too sure where the idea came from, to run a 9.025" deck. The idea was to relate a number for the shop to use that puts the decks where they need to be- and it has never been 9.025" in my experience. But then, it's never been a straight up 9" either.

It would be a nice luxury to have a blueprinted block for every engine. As long as the specs fall within the (rather "relaxed") GM factory limits, I generally call it good to go.

What is the story on the CNC'ed block above?
That is a lightened Dart block with all the bells and whistles as we worked with PCCW out of VT. that block was lightened, we did the 50MM cam tunnel .875 lifter bores, decking boring and plate honing and this engine was built for circle track racing down south and still is going today and is one of the best engines we have seen on the dyno and the driver who have used this engine says its a good peice as well.

I have some pics of the rest of the block and the finish product. Thanks for asking

Front of the block


Back


Finish product


Car and driver
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old 09-23-2010, 08:45 PM
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Hell of a piece, and hell of a job is all I can say.
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Old 09-23-2010, 09:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1
The block is set up to register off the main bearing bore and the block can be thusly bored without ever touching the decks with a cutting tool. Then the customer can pick up the block, take it home and proceed to find the piston deck heights with simple tools.
Of course the shop can do all this for the customer. I never said they couldn't.
Hotrodding and nascar are two different worlds. One is a business the other is fun.
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