putting carpet in now. putting a #6 stranded in to reach the battery, just in case buyer wants power amp in trunk. also running one rca cable (two jacks on each end) and some #10's for speakers in the doors. and another #18 for on/off. i am wanting to run them by the hump and into the console, that way anybody can tie into them if they want to change or add, using one as a pull wire or something, but pulling rca jacks wouldn't be possible.. is one set of rca cables enough ya think? i think each power amp needs one. they cost $15 a set. should i ? any other wires i should run? all I MYSELF am installing is just the dash unit to the package tray speakers and i plan on using the #10 wires for that. only 40W. i will run other #10 from the console to the doors. this is a second gen camaro. what is the best way to run the wires into the door? thx

Doc here,

Bullheimer,

On the Camero, For Clean job routing to the Rear, The Best way to Do it, is pull the left and right Kick panels off the front passenger compartment, then remove the aluminum carpet runners/retainers from the bottom of the door frame. Remove the Back seat, and arm rest panels there.

Route your Power amp wires down from the dash, in through the kick panel on the left, into the factory wire channel under the door.

From there, route your wires up through the left-side rear armrest area, into the trunk area.

The Reason I Say route your power wires in the left channel (left side of the car) is because your standard wire harness is located there, and power and audio should be separated as far as possible to Avoid Noise in the Audio.

Remember to run in addition to power, and ground , a 12 or 14 gauge wire for Amp energize (The wire That usually comes from the power antenna jack on the radio)

On the right side, run all your audio wires , Including all your rear speakers from the dash , to the Right side kick panel, into the right side door channel, up through the right rear armrest panel, and out into the trunk area. This side is good because there are NO wires (factory) going down this side. Nothing to induce noise into the Audio.

In the trunk area, route your wires, left and right, using plastic covered metal Adel clamps, to a point where you feel the future amp will be mounted.

Get some clear tubing, Twice the size of the wire end or connector for each wire, and cut bend it over the end, and tie wrap it so as no open ends exist.

Then get some tie wrap MARKERS (you have an area you can write on them with a laundry pen as to what the wire is) and label each wire in the trunk..(IE..Power, ground, left,Rear +, Left rear -..etc) You can get these at ACE or home Depot as well as the clear tubing. Do the same on the corresponding end at the front.

To run the Speaker wire into the Doors, From the front left and right kick panels, look for a grommet and rubber accordion type Boot that goes from the door frame to the door..

Some have them, some don"t (IE existing power windows or factory door speakers) If yours doesn't have one, you can score a set from the local Car Audio place, and you'll have to drill the holes.

You can just Drill the Holes in the Door and door Frame, and use spiral wrap around the wires into the door, but this has a tendency to "Bunch up and short out after a while getting mashed by the door closing on it all the time.(excess getting caught in the door frame..) That's why its best to use the boots.

Before You Cut your Door panels for your new speaker, Be sure to check for depth Clearance...Make sure The speaker magnet won't hit the window in up/down travel, and there is enough space to actually Accommodate the speaker...once you cut the panels your committed!

On the RCA jacks, you can make those yourself if your handy with a solder Iron and score some simple things at the local rat shack or Fry's Electronics.

Figure out how many male/female RCA jacks will be needed, and pick those up, figure out what gauge shielded wire / and Conductor Amounts (1, 2 or 3 conductor+ shield etc) is used at the radio end (22, 24..ect and match or go one GA better) get a 50 or 100 Foot roll of that wire.

Get some Shield Ferrules (Sp?) That slide over the shield and crimp with a space for an external ground wire. Attach and ground the Shield at the amp end ONLY, to avoid Ground loops. Leave the shield open at the front (provided it's not uses as a conductor)Solder The jacks on each end To the wires inside the shield cable on each end, and be sure you follow and match color on each end of the cable.

That ought to do it! Just use tie wraps and Cable clamps where ever possible, and anti chafe, and you should have a trouble free sound system that will last years trouble free.

Running the wires under the carpet Has it's pitfalls...like getting smashed, and cut over time and Chafing on the floorboard, getting pulled and yanked out of its connector...I'd avoid it if at all possible and go for the body panel route.

Good Luck!

Doc

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hye doc, i shoulda known i'd hear from you. yeah, now that you mention it that channel you refer to woulda been a good place to run wires except that all the screws holding it down looked rusty and i didn't feel like having tap them out even tho i guess i could have just put new self taping screws in.

i will however run the power on the pass. side. it will be on top of the foil crap i just laid down, if you look at my latest pics in the journal. as for the kick panels of a camaro they are an absolute nightmare to remove so i will not, if i can help it anyway, be taking them off. when i put carpet in the last time, i did what was recommended on a camaro site and just slid the edges of the carpet up underneath the bottoms of the kick panels. they reallllllly suck. i will also run the audio wires on the drivers side. there does seem to be the need to seperate the two. i was wanting to run the speaker wires out to the doors tho, and yeah, that does seem like it might take some talant (ie: be impossible to do , without removing the kick panels. hmmmm. i guess i will take a closer look, but most folks seem to say forget it. there is an emergency brake assembly on the drivers side. it might be that only that side is impossible to get off. i know behind the pass. side there is a vent acuator. it might be easy to take off that side.

what would be the purpose though, of running a ground wire from the front of the car to ground a power amp in the back. why could i not just ground it to the metal trunk??? good idea tho about labeling each wire so the next guy might have some idea of whhhaaaaa****suup! thx

Doc here,

The purpose of running the ground from the battery (I assume it's in the front) To the Trunk, Is For good bonding, and maximum transfer of current..Since an amp is high current. Frame and Body can add resistance, and are not always the best source of ground.

Grounding the Shields at the Amp prevents the ground from "Looping" up one shield and back on another making audio hum..so always ground Shields on one end or the other, but not both ends..

I didn't realize the Camero Kicks were such a pain to remove..The Left side on Corvette is...so I can see where your coming from there...

Check at your local electronic store (Not radio shack) for a product called Panduit wire channels, they make a flat plastic panel you can run wires through to protect them on a floor area, and aren't noticeable when you carpet is in.The Car Manufactures use them also.

Good Luck!
Doc

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HEY doc. i checked out that kick panel and it isnt so bad on the pass. side. the trouble is i dont really need to remove it to run the power, i can go around it. but as far as running the speaker wire into the door, then i would have to. DRAG! there is no existing hole in the door for wire. with plastic panels, many don't want to cut a hole. most i have seen have removed the stock speaker and taken the speaker out of it and used the frame of it to mount two 3 or 4 inch speakers inside the dash. i guess this is to avoid the doors. i dunno. i myself might just leave a coil of wire inside the kick panel for the next guy. the drivers side is hell with the ebrake. maybe i will just leave the wires near or in the kick panel on that side too.

i know what that panduit is very well. i have a ton of it at work. i have already put down the foil bubble wrap. check out my journal. so there wouldnt be any abrasion to worry about. had i not put down the peel and seal already i would consider it. it's always better to have a channel for future use to be sure. i'm gonna run it on the sides of the passengers tub, either on the outside or inside - on the side of the hump.

ANYWAY back to the ground issue. i cant believe i'm even asking anybody an electrical Q since i am a "master" electrician. but, since you think you should ground it at the battery and run a wire all the way to the trunk, would you not use the same size wire as the power supply, in my case 6gauge? to me, if i have X amps going out, i'm gonna have X amps going to ground. or, if i am running two grounds, say a short #6 from amp to the trunk, am i just running a small auxillary ground back to the battery, so it's main purpose is just to equalize the ground???? i have had somewhat of a similiar discussion on and electrical wiring forum where this guy said not to run bare wire inside metal flex, which is bullpoop, but i think he was trying to say something similar to this, that there might be a difference in the ground at the panel compared to after x amount of feet of flex. my opinion is that if i am running 6awg for my +V then my ground has to be the same. what u tink?

Doc here,

You are absolutely correct about equal gauge wire for the ground...Consider the whole circuit..what is going to cause the most trouble? the weakest link (undersized wire)

The Reason I advocate running the ground is consider the obstacles the ground path must overcome to be effective...several feet of body, that is painted, and sitting on rubber mounts, with ground straps here and there that may or may not be up to the current handling task (under gauge)

I find it more efficient, Safe, and trouble free to run the ground cable direct from source ground to the load.

Consider if you will, a battery mounted in the rear trunk area with direct fed power, but a 1/0 or 0/0 cable grounded to the trunk...Now invoke the worst case senerio..The body is perfectly painted (and insulated) sits on rubber shock mounts on the frame, The body has 3 or 4 braided ground straps amounting to nothing better than 8 gauge wire..What do you think is going to happen when you fire 650 CCA at the starter for the first time? yep, you got it..those ground straps are going to go up in a puff of smoke! Or even worse, what if the only good source ground was a fuel or brake line?

As you know the safe, proper way is to run that source ground directly to the load, and ground it there. The same applies with any high draw load.

Again, you are most correct in running equal gauge ground as opposed to power feeds.

I find it very interesting, grounding and good bonding techniques are the most common overlooked item in vehicle electrical, and cause the most problems!

Doc

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okay, so now that that is straight. i looked at possible places to punch a hole thru the firewall and with my a/c box in the way i am starting to think i should just leave the big wires out of the equation all together. i am thinking that if and when the amp gets put in, that going underneath and thru the frame rails would be the cleanest and not just that, but the easiest way as well. doc?

Doc here,

Ok, If you don't have an area you can route through the fire wall, the only other option is along the frame.

I Don't know that you could Snake it all the way through the INSIDE of the rails or not...They might have Compartment welds along the way...

The only way to be 100% sure is score a Snake from work and try to feed it all The way along the inside of the frame rails front to rear..Then you'd have to be Careful of Self Drilling Bolt shafts and Body Bolts Not poking a hole in the insulation.

Here is an idea I've had , but were never able to institute before, but since your in the Biz...and have access to the tools and parts, you might want to consider it. It would make a "SUPER CLEAN" install!

• Score about 30 ~ 40 feet of 1 inch to 1 1/4 inch Aluminum EMT Conduit, A Couple of Condulets, a handful of female to female EMT joints, and a couple of 90* Street Ells.
• Decide which Frame rail you want to use (straightest Shot front to rear
• Get a bender and head for 1 inch, 1 1/4 inch EMT.
• Starting from the Battery, install a 90 degree Ell with a liquid Tite Fitting for the cable to exit next to the battery, cut shape and bend The conduit to mirror the outside of the firewall, from the Ell to the Bottom of the firewall to the frame. Use a Condulet at the frame to firewall area (for ease of pulling access)
• Get a 10 foot stick of EMT and custom bend it to match the silhouette of the frame rail, attach it to the condulet, and use EMT Clamps to hold the conduit via either Tack weld or self drilling screws..
• Cut and bend another 10 foot stick to continue the run to the trunk, attach it in the same manner as the front half and run it to the area of the trunk you want the wires to exit.
• Add a 90 Degree Ell there, and mark and drill a hole through the trunk floor to match the ell then attach That with an Allen Bradley Enclosure Type threaded nipple..
• Pull your wires from the trunk to Condulets then to the the Ell by the battery, Add Your Condulet covers and gaskets and you have a Wire route That looks Factory, pro~built, Can't Be messed up by heat, fuel, brake fluid, rotating parts , Road fodder, and the like...

You Could probably score all the stuff from work for nothing or next to nothing, and what's a 10 foot stick of EMT nowadays? $1.50 a stick?

If I can't talk ya into that idea (I'd really like to see it done sometime) and the inside of the frame rails is a bust,

The other option is route the wires down the LEFT side frame rail, (to avoid The fuel line) In the same fashion of routing as the conduit as above.

Attach it with rubber/plastic coated Adel Clamps..you could run them parallel one above the other and join both clamps at the same screw hole every two or so feet..

Avoid, rotating parts, heat, Brake lines and the hazards of running wire underneath the car..

To enter the trunk get an EMT liquid Tite fitting and install it in the floor, clamp the wires tightly as they pass through and you should have it. Maybe "Pot" the fitting with RTV to avoid Water entering from the bottom.

Think about the Conduit idea..
Either way..good luck!

Doc

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doc all i can say is wow! i could do that but.... i mean i have all the stuff here like you said, but 1" even would be too much for me to try and follow the frame and strap it down every foot or so to make sure it didn't rattle or fall off. i dont have alot of clearnace like i did with my truck. the emt idea would be okay for it if i did it when i had the body off. but i think that would be a bit much for me buddy. i think door number two has my name on it. either that or not even do it. just put in the speaker wires, run them to my dash deck, and i have the rca cable in already for an amp and a control (on/off) wire too.

IM DONE. I got some very small panduit and cut a piece about 2 ft long to go from the back of the console to the back seat area. i cut out all the jute and bubble wrap and sat the panduit in there. i ran the rca cable, which has a control wire in it too. i will put the speaker wire in there too. i looked under the car and found the end of the front frame rail which is under the passengers seat and there is a hole in the top of that frame as well as in the end. there is a knock-out looking thing right above this hole so i drilled it out and put an electrical connector in there swathed with black weatherstrip glue. i will run my two #6 wires down the opposite side of the hump under the seat and into the hole and then inside the frame rails to the front right under the battery. thanks for the ideas doc-tah

Doc here,

Kewl!
Snap some photos of it and put em' up in the gallery!

Glad to hear you got it!

Doc

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but here is the hole and you can see where i am going. go to my JOURNAL for a complete explanation and the measurements of where to put the hole.
the silver thing at the upper right corner is the fitting i am coming out of with the wires to the battery and to the front of the car inside the frame rail. i realize if somebody wants to put sub-frame connectors on the rear, they might have to cut or work around these wires but that's their problem
btw there is a matching hole in the top of the frame rail exactly above the hole in the bottom of the frame rail. that's where i'm going into the rail at

Doc here,

Kewl pics..and clean job ... keep us updated as you go along!

I like that rubber Grommet around the entry hole! Good touch.

Doc

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i personally wouldnt run the ground from the battery, a good body ground in the trunk works fine, if the person purchasing the car decides to run a high power amp in the trunk, they will experience a lot of radio interference, and also a ground buzz, plus it costs more to run another long cable. with audio, it is my experience that a shorter ground is better. they should be the same guage too, but its not necessacary. on my setup i am running a 5 gauge power wire and a 8 gauge ground...its an 1800 watt class d amp, and its working perfectly fine.

Doc here,

I whole heartedly Disagree with using the Body for a ground in ANY high current application.

Good wiring practice, and experience shows us that You ALWAYS run a properly gauged Ground wire to The load from the source ground.

Using the Body as a source ground is a crap shoot at best, just for instance the body offers more of a path of resistance to the source load than would a properly gauged wire. (Ground will ALWAYS follow the path of LEAST resistance)

By using a body ground, passably imposes more resistance to ground than a straight run, You subject the component (in this case an amp) to more HEAT because it simply has to do more work to provide the same resultant as with a solid source ground.

It Can also result in an unbalanced load requiring more work to equalize the load..Linear Op amps have thermal limits...as well as the Strip line output bricks (in fact in high end amps, the Bricks are mounted to the heat sink material with a Collector Tied thermal resistor that opens when heated past tolerance) Before They go into component thermo shutdown...(in some cases it's permanent!)

RFI only feeds into the Equation IF you HAVE bad grounding practices...or lack the proper filters on the power, ground and speaker sources..

Also MOST RFI is AC signal...If a linear Op amp sees an AC ripple on it's source power, It will at least overheat..worst case scenario, it will destroy the integrated circuit.

Classic case is Unfiltered DC (like that of an Alternator with a damaged diode pack, or running the radio while hooked up to a charger) will impose at least 1/3 of a full wave AC into the DC source..This LOWERS the available DC power To the circuit, (say 11 volts DC instead or 14.4 DC) and impose a few volts AC on that source power..Now the Component is struggling to operate at a lower DC voltage, and makes more heat, In addition to The AC ripple on the source voltage line which also heats up the componet...It won't last very long.

If you get ground buzz..you can bet it's almost always bad ground. The most common of which is Ground loops..This occurs when an a ground has been installed on BOTH ends of a shield wire..Ground will travel up and then back down the shields creating a loop, this makes a buzz..

If you hold the cables in your hand, the buzz will amplify simply from the total inductance of your body...(signal looking for ground)

ALWAYS run proper gauge Source ground to the load! If for any reason (such as corrosion or other grounding failure) you lose ground integrity through the body, your best source ground might end up as a Fuel line or brake line! I wouldn't want 30 or 50 amps running up my fuel line ... It's just not safe.

Make all your ground connections there (at the load) such as shield ground, and power ground right at the amp, your Equipment will perform LONGER and BETTER...and have peace of mind that you won't be suffering any surprise fires..(Wire or other related).

Doc

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that part about grounding the sheild at both ends producing a "reverbarating" ground is an interesting concept i'm sorry i cant debate.

however, what i can tell you was a crappy idea was my thinking i could run my wire from the back of the frame to the front! the frame has a huge hole in the center of it where the coil spring and shock are mounted!!!! i could run the wire right thru the center of both?? NOT! only if i drilled a couple of holes on the tire side of the "doughnut" and could catch the wires and wire tie them there. crap. anyway, since i had the hole in my floor drilled, i ran my two wires down into the frame rail anyway, and filled the hole with weatherstrip glue. but i had to pop out after only like two feet, before the frame hit the coil spring, and route them along side the gas lines, so i might just as well have run on top of the frame the whole way. my ground wire isn't long enough to reach the battery so i am grounding it at the motor mount bolt on the frame. the battery is grounded at the motor mount on the block. i will run a jumper from one bolt to the other and that will have to do it. since my camaro has side battery cables that leaves the top posts free to hook up the batt supply come amplifier time. as for a ground for the amp, i would have been perfectly happy myself to have grounded the wire near the amp to the rear frame. but my camaro, as you probably know at least by now, doesnt have a frame in the back of the car. i am thinkin the best way would have been to run the wires down the drivers side of the car and up and thru the firewall thru the hole the speedo cable runs thru, maybe next time!

i have hooked up my dash deck. got the front peice of carpet in too. it sounds great with both 6x9's in the tray and the 4 inchers in the dash board. this is a done deal. the only weak link i cant get rid of is the 18ga speaker leads coming out of the deck for about 8 inches before the 10ga takes over. likewise at the other end at the 6x9's. i will have to either find wide and skinny spade connectors for the 10ga or solder them to the speakers.