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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 11:17 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilman181 View Post
Luckily, I do not scare easy. I have already cut everything off the 53 frame and cut approximately 32" off the frame rails. I am committed now!

I really appreciate all the suggestions and input. Of course we all know that they say about opinions........ It is up to me to sort it out the best that I can.

Keep the details coming fellas!

I really appreciate all the suggestions and input. Of course we all know that they say about opinions........ It is up to me to sort it out the best that I can.

EXACTLY!!! When I have gotten into something I have never done like putting the convertible top on my Gran Sport or replacing the Hard drive in my IMAC I got a ton of different information including DON'T DO IT, BRING IT TO A PRO! But with all the info I was able to go into the project with a better understanding of what I was doing.

I rather "scare someone off" doing some complex (TO THEM) project so they do something more mild and end up going down the highway with a big smile on their face. Than to say DO IT! to something super complex and they end up over their head with a car cut in half in the back yard and they are defeated and discouraged.

I found out after doing all kinds of fab work and suspension work for years when I did this frame clip it was a mutha, "could" I do it, yes, I did. But it was a mutha and I want to pass on my experience to anyone as much as I want to pass on how to straighten stainless steel mouldings where most people would never try because I have found it to be very easy and mind over matter, where as a HUGE job like a frame clip can end up matter over mind!

Just an opinion as I stated before, we all have them, use them and decide which way you want to go.

Brian

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 05:50 PM
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Here is a tutorial on a 1982 G body clip on a 50 Chevy pickup 47-55 Chevy/GMC truck frame clipping

The core support has to be modified for steering box clearance, I kicked the bottom of the radiator out 4" to clear the steering. It's been on the road for some time now with no problems. It has 500 Caddy power.

You can use the F body spindles on the G body clip, they bolt on. You can also use B body spindles, they also bolt on, they have 12" disc brakes, with a 5" wheel bolt pattern. 94 Camaro 12" rotors can be fitted to the B body spindles if you want 4 3/4" bolt pattern.

67 to 69 Camaro, 68 to 74 Nova, 79 to 87 A and G bodies, and Mustang II/Pinto are all within 1/2" in overall width at about 56 1/2". 70 to 82 Camaro, and 75 to79 nova are nearly the same as each other at 60 to 61".
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 09-25-2013, 06:01 PM
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Here is a tutorial on a 1982 G body clip on a 50 Chevy pickup 47-55 Chevy/GMC truck frame clipping

The core support has to be modified for steering box clearance, I kicked the bottom of the radiator out 4" to clear the steering. It's been on the road for some time now with no problems. It has 500 Caddy power.

You can use the F body spindles on the G body clip, they bolt on. You can also use B body spindles, they also bolt on, they have 12" disc brakes, with a 5" wheel bolt pattern. 94 Camaro 12" rotors can be fitted to the B body spindles if you want 4 3/4" bolt pattern.

67 to 69 Camaro, 68 to 74 Nova, 79 to 87 A and G bodies, and Mustang II/Pinto are all within 1/2" in overall width at about 56 1/2". 70 to 82 Camaro, and 75 to79 nova are nearly the same as each other at 60 to 61".
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:43 PM
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Can someone please explain the reasoning behind using the center of the lower ball joint as the base for subframe location?

Before I tore the original axle out of the truck, I centered the steering perfectly and marked the floor with the center of the spindles.

I have the Nova subframe positioned with the center of the spindles aligned with my marks on the floor. If I hang a plumb bob from the grease fitting in the lower ball joint, it is 3/4" behind my spindle center line.

Will my spindle location shift once the engine, transmission, fenders, hood, grill, etc... are mounted?

Help me understand the geometry of this. Thanks!
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Old 09-26-2013, 03:58 PM
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I have never looked at a spindle like that, if the center of the ball joint is in fact the center of the hub ("axle") mount then it you would simply put the measurement of the ball joint center at your wheel base and there you go. The ball joint isn't going to go forward or back thru the arch........much. And this is the reason I removed all doubt and dumbed it down to putting it at ride height with a piece of all-tread and trial fit the front sheet metal and the whole deal so I KNEW that wheel was where it belonged BEFORE I welded it on. Like I said, a quarter inch makes a difference, if that wheel is forward or back a very small amount you CAN see it so that's why I did it as I did and it worked out perfect. In that photo you see with my little boy next to it (he's 16 now!) there is no motor or trans in that truck, it was still being held down by the all-thread I replaced the shocks with. It's that simple, no doubts, no guessing. If I had done a bunch of them like Randy I wouldn't need it I guess, but in that one I did, I lowered it to ride height.

Brian
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:05 PM
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You know what, I just got to thinking, the upper control arm shaft on these front ends is at an angle, it's called "anti-dive". The bottom ball joint may not move forward or back, but the upper one does, thus the hub mount ("axle") WOULD move forward and back thru the arch of the suspension travel. How much it goes down when the weight is in it would determine where that axle/hub mount ends up. Like I said, I am sorry, I need to KNOW things and I wouldn't personally do that, just my opinion, that is why I did as I did so there was no doubt.

Brian
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Old 09-26-2013, 04:20 PM
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And of course if you wait for Randy to post you will have the answer doing it that other way.

Brian
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
I have never looked at a spindle like that, if the center of the ball joint is in fact the center of the hub ("axle") mount then it you would simply put the measurement of the ball joint center at your wheel base and there you go. The ball joint isn't going to go forward or back thru the arch........much. And this is the reason I removed all doubt and dumbed it down to putting it at ride height with a piece of all-tread and trial fit the front sheet metal and the whole deal so I KNEW that wheel was where it belonged BEFORE I welded it on. Like I said, a quarter inch makes a difference, if that wheel is forward or back a very small amount you CAN see it so that's why I did it as I did and it worked out perfect. In that photo you see with my little boy next to it (he's 16 now!) there is no motor or trans in that truck, it was still being held down by the all-thread I replaced the shocks with. It's that simple, no doubts, no guessing. If I had done a bunch of them like Randy I wouldn't need it I guess, but in that one I did, I lowered it to ride height.

Brian
Thanks Brian!

I have plenty of questions.

How do you determine ride height?

Is it a best guesstimate based off of vehicle weights, straight six versus V8, etc....
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:25 PM
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The stock truck and the 77 Nova weigh about the same. I simply measured the distance between the lower control arm rubber bumper and where it hits the crossmember on the donor car, as I remember it was about 2" (doesn't sound like much but that is what I remember) and it put the all-thread in and tightened it up until the rubber bumpers were about that far away. That put the sub frame down at the ride height it was on the Nova. I set the frame on jack stands so that the truck was at the ride height I wanted it, front and rear. I then tack welded the sub frame to the frame with the upper control arm shafts at the exact same angle they were on the donor car when it was at ride height. That would give me everything the donor car had, it would be exactly the same.

When I was doing this the sub frame was already removed from a car so I found the same car and made these measurements, that may not be so easy today looking for a 77 Nova. But you should be able to get that number from someone on line as to how far is the rubber bumper from the frame.

Randy was saying if the lower control arms are level that will give you the same thing as far as the control arm shafts angle.

After it was tack welded in, I installed the front fender assy to be sure the wheels where placed where they needed to be. That is where I found the frame clip needed to be moved forward about 3/8"-1/2" something like that. I forget exactly but it was quite a bit, the wheels were too far back in the wheel wells and it just didn't look right. My time spent on mocking up the front sheetmetal was good time spent in my opinion! I cut the spot welds and moved it forward where it needed to be and then made the plates to weld the two together.

I am certainly not saying this is the best way, It's just how I did it, it worked out well.

Brian
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:34 PM
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When you level the lower control arms, I am assuming that you guys mean front to back, correct?

Where exactly are you placing the level to level the control arms?
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Heilman181 View Post
Thanks Brian!

I have plenty of questions.

How do you determine ride height?

Is it a best guesstimate based off of vehicle weights, straight six versus V8, etc....


Just for a reference ,,which I know there are other answers depending on

which accesorys are on engine ,,these are complete engines less acc,

1 the 350 chevy WITH manual fly wheel and cast exaust manifolds on a pallet weighed 575 ,but subtract 70 lbs for pallet

the 454 with steel heads and intake 685
with aluminum heads and alum intake501 lbs

the 235 1954 model with exaust manifold and flywheel 870 no other accesorys

these are shipping weights Freight companys
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:49 PM
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I am assuming just out from the bushings on the frame, but you will need to ask Randy to confirm. The alignment on these front ends can go miles, so it isn't super critical. I just had the guy next to my shop show me how he welded his frame on just thinking about how to mate it to the frame and not thinking about all the other stuff, like I said welding it to the frame is a no brainer, it's the other things that you have to think about. I don't have one of these cars here to look at or I would for you to get your answers.

Brian
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Old 09-26-2013, 05:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 496CHEVY3100 View Post
Just for a reference ,,which I know there are other answers depending on

which accesorys are on engine ,,these are complete engines less acc,

1 the 350 chevy WITH manual fly wheel and cast exaust manifolds on a pallet weighed 575 ,but subtract 70 lbs for pallet

the 454 with steel heads and intake 685
with aluminum heads and alum intake501 lbs

the 235 1954 model with exaust manifold and flywheel 870 no other accesorys

these are shipping weights Freight companys
But it's not just the engines we are talking about, what the front of a 77 Nova with a 350 in it compared to what the front of a 53 Chevy pickup with a 235 in it is what we are looking at. They are real close, over weight as I remember right around 3500. The Nova 350 is lighter, but it's frame, suspension and my God that bumper, it weighs more than the 53 Chevy front suspension and bumper, ya catch what I'm throwin?

Brian
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2013, 05:59 PM
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I tried to post pictures of my 53 with clip sitting beside a stock 52 ,,the difference is unbelievable ,mine looks much heavier ,I cant post pictures from my camera on this site ,I have to print them on photo paper then transfer to files then print
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 09-26-2013, 06:16 PM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 496CHEVY3100 View Post
I tried to post pictures of my 53 with clip sitting beside a stock 52 ,,the difference is unbelievable ,mine looks much heavier ,I cant post pictures from my camera on this site ,I have to print them on photo paper then transfer to files then print
Your photos are probably too large. Get on photobucket and then you can do anything you want. Photo and image hosting, free photo galleries, photo editing

The Nova weighs from 3200 to 3600 or so depending on options. The truck was on the low end of that but right there.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 09-26-2013 at 06:22 PM.
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