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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 05:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Yes you can order them in three sizes, they are pricey but maybe worth
the $$$$

Last year we got the upgraded one (non poppets) but stock size

Here are the ones i've been looking for:

62 lbs/hr. $ 899
GM V8 High Performance 62 lbs Vortec Spider Assembly 1996 2002 CP 10722 62 8 | eBay

48 lbs/hr. $ 799
GM V8 High Performance 48 lbs Vortec Spider Assembly 1996 2002 CP 10722 48 8 | eBay

36 lbs/hr. $ 699
GM V8 High Performance 36 lbs Vortec Spider Assembly 1996 2002 CP 10722 36 8 | eBay

Company site is AUS Injection : Racing Fuel Injectors Service Cleaning New Replacement
That's alot of jing considering that the tune will need an update. I'd love to see you try it and let us know how it works. But I was reading back a page or so and you mentioned that you might be swapping intake at some point. If that's the case, then I'd jump to that chase right now unless of course funds aren't available.

I have to admit that I'm not familiar with retuning process of the older pcm's due to no one local has the capabilities. But regarding sending away for a 'chip' I would direct anyone away from that due to the amount of trial and error. Especially with a non typical build such as yours.

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 05:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
That's alot of jing considering that the tune will need an update. I'd love to see you try it and let us know how it works. But I was reading back a page or so and you mentioned that you might be swapping intake at some point. If that's the case, then I'd jump to that chase right now unless of course funds aren't available.

I have to admit that I'm not familiar with retuning process of the older pcm's due to no one local has the capabilities. But regarding sending away for a 'chip' I would direct anyone away from that due to the amount of trial and error. Especially with a non typical build such as yours.
Nailhead, yes you are right, as of right now, we will

Leave the stock PCM and stock spider and see how it works but we will
either swap it for the 411 and buy a tune or buy another "tuned" black box
to make it run decent, we don't have the funds for the self tuning right now
but it's a window we won't close, seems like everybody loves that
and it's the better choice to use all of the available power. But
the F.A.S.T. is lovely, expensive but seems like the best, if not
we have some cheaper options but...i'm all for quality, you get what you pay for that's a law for me in performance parts.

Your last line caught my attention, isn't our build typical? Why not?
i really thought it was a proven combo, only the stupid intake and pcm
is blocking us some power.

Thanks!
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 07:22 AM
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You're build is a good & proven combo,however,it will need tuning & fueling adjustments to run.There's no way the stock injection & pcm tune will run this head/cam combo anywhere near decently.I'm sorry about the drama above with hcompton,but,I hate to see you following his advise based on his elementary understanding of injectors & pcm tuning.
In a N/A build,going too large on injector sizing can & will cause you problems.In a forced induction setup,unfortunately,it is a necessary evil that must be tuned around & even then,you're likely to have some lower rpm range issues such as too rich of a mixture & inconsistent injector operation.In Chile I'm not sure what you're tuning options are,but,as Jim stated above,it will be a hit,or,miss.Not something you are likely to get worked out in a mailorder tune.It's not as simple as setting duty cycle to xx%.Lower duty cycle & pulse width can effect the injector operation as they will not be optimum.I'm no expert,but,based what he is saying,I can tell he has done very little if any pcm tuning.You're situation with the stock intake makes matters worse as you have no realiable way to play with fuel psi & have a very narrow window between what will work,& what won't with the spider.You're fuel psi is set in stock form between 62 to 65 psi at the spider.At WOT,it should drop no lower than 58 psi.Pressure below this causes problems with the poppets opening.The upgraded mini-jectors can run ok as low 52 psi.Going above 75 psi,can cause the poppets to start to lock up & the mini-jectors can have problems shutting off. IMO, 36# injectors will be too much for the power this combo is making to run well at all rpm ranges.You will need approx. 30 to 32# injectors at your actual fuel psi for this to support your HP & still have good all around performance.I'm guessing you will be somewhere between 400 to 425 HP.You're heads will go much farther,but,that is about it for the LT4 hot cam in a well built 355.
Another thought,have you actually checked the match up between those AFR heads & your stock intake? You may wanna look at that.I haven't used AFR's but other brands of larger port heads need some massaging on the lower intake to mate up well.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 07:28 AM
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Thanks Joker!
No problem, with the drama.
i haven't check how they match up, hopefully fine!
Soon we'll see, yes the tune might be a bit complicated
so we are strongly going into the selftuning option that would make
the combo perfect! Spider/Intake lock us up on a situation our hands are tied.
i really hope it can move with the spider and stock ecm.
i faced this with the L98 and i moved it around a bit with the stock tune
no WOT and it was nice, but i tuned that one after a few weeks.
We're getting the SpeedPro pistons & Rings
Any recommendations for the included rings?
Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons Moly Rings Kit 030 355 | eBay

Thanks again!
S
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 07:35 AM
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hcompton:Joker most of the vortec upgrade involves the Later model system MPFI or marine systems. They operate at lower pressure. 40-50 psi.


The marine intake is adjustable & the injectors can be swapped out.The upgraded spider you speak of is exactly the same & uses the same psi & offers the same flow as the older units.The only difference is,it uses electric mini-jectors vs poppets of the older style.It is a realiability fix that offers no performance improvement.It is still 21 lb/hr flow rate at stock fuel psi.
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Old 02-23-2016, 07:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Thanks Joker!
No problem, with the drama.
i haven't check how they match up, hopefully fine!
Soon we'll see, yes the tune might be a bit complicated
so we are strongly going into the selftuning option that would make
the combo perfect! Spider/Intake lock us up on a situation our hands are tied.
i really hope it can move with the spider and stock ecm.
i faced this with the L98 and i moved it around a bit with the stock tune
no WOT and it was nice, but i tuned that one after a few weeks.
We're getting the SpeedPro pistons & Rings
Any recommendations for the included rings?
Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons Moly Rings Kit 030 355 | eBay

Thanks again!



S
Those rings will be fine.You just want to remember what you have if you have to replace them down the road sometime.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 07:39 AM
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Hopefully won't replace them in a long time
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 08:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
The newer ecu will need to be tuned differently than the older L98 ecus they were easy to have chipped and then just reflash the chip at home with a new tune/bin file you can try 30 different tunes per day. But with the newer systems the programmers are not cheap. Moates does sell them but they are almost 1000 bucks for the tuner. It is also possible to install and emulator chip and bypass the factory tune but I dont see the software for that upgrade on the market. You could go back to the older system with many problems but would give you the ability to tune the ecu again without much cost or any if you already have a chip programmer and software for the L98 system. You can use a stock edlebrock manifold and add in fuel rails and injectors and throttle body to the manifold. A lot of the drag racers do this type of setup with the BS3 computer but any good fast ecu will do it. Holley makes universel undrilled fuel rail for this type of setup. You can also buy a 90 elbow where one side fits the carb plate of the manifold and the other fits the big LS throttle body.

It is always funny to see people suggest parts that arent on the market. Like you have a lot of options here. The 36's are the way to go. Since its pretty much your only option other than the 19 lbs stockers. The larger ones will be no less of a problem to tune. Some people are sure there right and have no clue just how fast the injectors can fire and how little time they can spend open and still be happy and easily tuned. Honda guys often run 1000cc injectors and are not running rich at low rpms. Unless the ecu is not tuned for them it should be no problem. If your truck is flex fuel you may have some other options. I would also look into the flex fuel ecu system it uses wide band and can tune for better fuel curves with the stock ecu program. But not sure if it will run the engine aggressively with abnormal conditions. It may pull timing or other parameters back to make up for bad fuels.

If you send the ecu out make sure its to someone that has done this type of lt4 cam and upgraded injectors along with other mods they should be able to send you one back that is at least close to your needs. Being in chile may be a problem but there are speed shops there as well. So you may be able to find some local resources to tune the system. Just look for someone with a dyno. They often have the ability to tune as well. Its kind of the bread and butter tf owning a dyno.

Hope this helps.
FWIW,the stockers ARE NOT 19 lb/hr.They are 21 lb/hr with the Vortecs stock fuel psi.The 19 lb/hr that gets so misquoted over the internet is based on 43 psi,which from the looks of it,is where you gleen about 90% of the info & advise you dish out here vs any real world knowledge.I have not offered anything that is not available.I said he needed 30 to 32 lb/hr to support his setup at a maximum.I didn't offer him a set of injectors that don't exist,i offered him what would be optimum for his setup.$899 for set of injectors that are too large & gonna require tuning that's not available to him is not helping,even if they are his only option.The point is,he needs a different induction system to make this work.
I may get banned for this,but,if so,so be it.You run around here spreading nothing but internet & forum myth that you evidently have plenty of time for.Very little,if any of your advise is based on actual experience & that is very easy to see.You always happen to have a vehicle in your garage to back up your advise when questioned,wether it be your Escalade,or,your Camaro & Vette,which it seems the actual specs seem to change from 1 thread to the next to support your advise,& now low & behold,you whip out this rocket powered Honda in this thread.How many vehicles,& how much money & time do you have on your hands????Do you even work,or,just build 800 HP motors with a set ProComp heads?You argued for over 2 pages claiming the GM 290 crate was better & more powerful than an L31.Now,you regularly recommend the L31?????? The pics of your precious ProComp heads appear to be copied & pasted from an Ebay seller's store.
IMO,you're kinda like a guy my Granpa told me about.....You're so full of crap,that after the undertaker gives you an enema,he'll be able to bury you in a matchbox.


Oh yeah,i almost forgot....Hope This Helps !!!

My apologies to the OP.Just had enough of this guy & his BS !!!!
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 09:37 AM
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Op,also keep in mind when considering aftermarket controllers,etc that you have an electronic transmission that will need to be controlled as well.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 10:17 AM
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The 19 lb/hr rating got started by a misinformation & then spread through the net by ppl such as yourself that google & search forums for info.The Vortec has never used 43 psi.It has been the same since day !.Niether of the available spiders will even operate at 43 psi & they NEVER have.And yes,we both agree they are too small.My problem with the 36 lb/hr unit besides being too much fuel, is that it costs $899 & will require hands on extensive tuning,which may not be available to the OP & even then,he will have to make some compromise in performance.On top of that,he then hits a brickwall with the intake itself.Yes,they can be made to work,but,not as easily as you state,by simply adjusting duty cycle.The injectors have to have enough time to open & close,which must be figured into the equation & worked out as well.It's not the simple fix that you state.There is more to it than that & even then,he will have to make comprimises,most likely at idle & low speed.Lowering the duty cycle itself can start to cause problems with erratic injector operation as they will be performing at the low end of what they were designed for.So yes I'm disagreeing with your recommended fix here by paying $899 for that injector setup,plus extensive tuning,only to have mediocre performance.
Any truck,or,car that currently has an SBC installed in it can be upgraded to an L31.IT IS a direct bolt in except for the intake & flywheel,if the previous motor was pre 86.All accessories,exhaust,everything,that was bolted to the previous motor bolts rite up to the L31.It is still a Gen1 SBC.Your arguments in that thread were more about performance than fit.
By the time the OP buys that $899 spider & has it tuned,he can very easily go with another entire setup & have better performance.
Now as for adjusting the fuel psi on a Vortec spider,simply show us in a diagram how it's done.I'm sure you can find one on the net since it's so popular & easy to do.Or better yet,just explain exactly how you are gonna do it.Yes,it can be done,but,not realiably,or,easily & as I stated before,there is very narrow window between too little & too much psi to operate these units.Something you seem to either forget,or,not understand.
As for my fuel psi,it can range from 63 to 65 psi at idle to 58,59 at WOT,then recovers to to the 63 to 65.

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
All injectors are sold and rated at 43 psi. All of them... They run what ever psi the manufacture runs but when you buy them by size they are rated at 43 psi. Internet is actually right on this one. If not you would never be able to get a clear rating of the flow rate of after market injectors since most are aftermarket even the oem buy them off the shelf at this 43 rated psi. Without a stable rating injector sales reps would take advantage of people and sell them with false ratings. Its a very important part of the aftermarket and oem efi systems.

Thank god we dont buy them based on orifice size or max pressure rating.

Any return style fuel system can have the fuel pressure raised by closing off the return line. Many vehicles setup for turbos with efi use an fmu to raise pressure with boost. so yes it can be done. Not a great idea but can be done. This is why i suggest the larger injectors at normal fuel pressure.

Later or cali models may have a returnless system and this will be harder to adjust. But 50 state vortec 5.7 should be return style system.

My first suggestion on upgrading the system is certainly to go with a throttle body big carb style efi from fitech. They are cheap and should out flow the stock manifold my a mile. Still a better choice and cost about the same as injector upgrade and easily tuned. But if the op wants to run the stock system that is his choice. Might need it for local laws or other problems we dont know about. So its best to try to help. I dont want to keep suggesting things that the op has already decided against. So its larger injectors to the rescue.
The Vortec has approx. 100 psi going to the spider.It has a nonadjustable regulator at the spider set to 65 psi.Adding another regulator before does no good as you already have 100 psi available.Adding another regulator after in the return line is pointless as well because you can't get more psi from already regulated 65 psi.
I've done extensive research on this trying to come up with a better way along with many others.Me & a close friend actually adapted the regulator from,IIRC,a TPI setup & got it work with spider.He then soldered a hex bit & 1/4" drive extension up & thru a bored & sealed hole in the intake to allow adjustment w/o removing the upper intake.We had some success,but,nothing realiable.Prototype tooling to mold the upper intake alone was in the neighborhood of $25,000 & then production tooling was around $70,000.And those prices were with us doing the design work & having it done through my company as I'm an injection molding engineer.We would have had to put our homes,land,everything in hock just to get up & going.Just wasn't worth it.Then 2 yrs later,some Chinese knockoff would come in & under sell us,putting us out of business & homeless.LOL.There was also the issue with the injectors not functioning above certain fuel psi.
The set in this thread from AUS is new to me.Never saw this setup before.I'm sure they have basically found a way to adjust psi & injector operation.Not much detail on their website.They may be able to do a set at lesser flow.IDK.You can't however,assume that since they are offering & selling them,that they actually perform well.Lots of stuff out there for sale that doesn't work as it should,but,gets sold everyday,from tb spacers to rocker arms.Ppl will buy anything if you tell them it works & increases HP.
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Old 02-23-2016, 03:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Hi guys, we pulled out the engine on the 1996 Yukon.
L31 Vortec SBC, We were doing the top end only but we decided
to go with a full rebuild. We already have some parts for it.

1 - 0912 AFR Heads
2 - LT4 Hotcam
3 - 1.6 Crane Cams Gold Race roller rockers
4 - 3600 Yank Torque Converter.

We already have 1 5/8 headers and other goodies
as the Taylor intake spacer. We want to make the truck
fun to drive, not looking to make it a race truck but closer
to the feel of it.

We are going .30 over, so it will be a 355 but here's the doubt.
Which kind of pistons to run? We are going with Hypereutectic
i rebuild my 87 Vette L98 eight years ago with great success using
Mahle Flat tops and runs really great so i want to repeat the formula.
But i'd rather ask than make a mistake, we still have the black box
and no 411pcm so we might purchase a custom tuned black box for now
and later maybe a fast system so we won't have to worry about tuning
issues.

Will .030 over Mahle Flat top pistons work on my build?
or should i go with the stock dished pistons that they sell specifically
for 1996-2002 Vortec engines?

Thanks in advance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Nailhead, yes you are right, as of right now, we will

Leave the stock PCM and stock spider and see how it works but we will
either swap it for the 411 and buy a tune or buy another "tuned" black box
to make it run decent, we don't have the funds for the self tuning right now
but it's a window we won't close, seems like everybody loves that
and it's the better choice to use all of the available power. But
the F.A.S.T. is lovely, expensive but seems like the best, if not
we have some cheaper options but...i'm all for quality, you get what you pay for that's a law for me in performance parts.

Your last line caught my attention, isn't our build typical? Why not?
i really thought it was a proven combo, only the stupid intake and pcm
is blocking us some power.

Thanks!
I don't see alot of people putting a set of AFR heads on a Vortec long block using the stock fuel system and PCM in a 4WD application. That is atypical to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
That's alot of jing considering that the tune will need an update. I'd love to see you try it and let us know how it works. But I was reading back a page or so and you mentioned that you might be swapping intake at some point. If that's the case, then I'd jump to that chase right now unless of course funds aren't available.

I have to admit that I'm not familiar with retuning process of the older pcm's due to no one local has the capabilities. But regarding sending away for a 'chip' I would direct anyone away from that due to the amount of trial and error. Especially with a non typical build such as yours.
I consider the F.A.S.T. system to be expensive as well considering it will involve another intake. Like I mentioned, if the funds are available then I'd jump right to the chase now of an MS system with a Vortec multiport intake with an aftermarket throttle body. You'll be into it for about $1500-1800 with ECM, intake, TB, injectors, rails and wideband. I'm not to sure of your transmission operation. Is a 96 running the cable giddyup to the box next to the brake booster or is it run through the PCM? Either way can be handled, but both are a different approach.

Obviously, I'm a fan of the MS system due to the amount of tuning that can be done in a moment's notice. Once you use one, you'll never turn back. The only comparable system is anything that can be run with HP Tuners like the LS platform. To each his own.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:22 PM
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My plans are, if I can ever get situated & down to it, using either GM'S Ramjet, or, the ProFlo XT by E'brock.The complete systems are expensive but you have most of what you need & can put it all together on the cheap for less than $1000 if you shop smart.These are both 1000 cfm systems & can easily support 650 HP.
You can retain & use your current coil, distributor, & PCM, however, if you do the 0411 swap, you will have better tunability & HP Tuners support.Either unit can use either the Vortec 454 throttlebody, or, the LS1. The Ramjet comes with the Vortec 454 throttlebody in the kit.The stock L31 throttlebody can also be used, but, will need some serious mods to the throttle linkage.
The ProFlo intake is approx $450.The Ramjet is just over $500.Fuel rails & fittings approx $150.Injectors, another $400.Not to mention the "cool factor" when you pop the hood.LOL.

Last edited by jokerZ71; 02-23-2016 at 05:30 PM.
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Old 02-23-2016, 05:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
I don't see alot of people putting a set of AFR heads on a Vortec long block using the stock fuel system and PCM in a 4WD application. That is atypical to me.



I consider the F.A.S.T. system to be expensive as well considering it will involve another intake. Like I mentioned, if the funds are available then I'd jump right to the chase now of an MS system with a Vortec multiport intake with an aftermarket throttle body. You'll be into it for about $1500-1800 with ECM, intake, TB, injectors, rails and wideband. I'm not to sure of your transmission operation. Is a 96 running the cable giddyup to the box next to the brake booster or is it run through the PCM? Either way can be handled, but both are a different approach.

Obviously, I'm a fan of the MS system due to the amount of tuning that can be done in a moment's notice. Once you use one, you'll never turn back. The only comparable system is anything that can be run with HP Tuners like the LS platform. To each his own.
Jim he does have an electronic trans.Trucks/vans/suv's from 93 up use these.The cable you speak of that runs to the box beside the booster is actually the cruise control.The TV cable used on the 700R4 runs to the trans for proper trans function.
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Old 02-23-2016, 06:10 PM
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CFM Tech also has an MPFI intake for Vortecs. IDK how well it works.It's marketed mainly for marine use & it is cast iron.
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