1996 - L31 Vortec Rebuild - Flat tops or Dish stockers? - Page 4 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #46 (permalink)  
Old 02-23-2016, 09:37 PM
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I had all forgot about Wester's Garage.They have done alot of research & design with the Vortec spider & offer custom th unning as well.They have dealers worldwide. They have the spiders in flow matched sets. They have a 26 lb/hr set that is rated for 440 HP & a 28.5 lb/hr set for up to 456 HP.The costs is not nearly as high as the AUS units at $469 after deduction of a $200 core charge.They have a really good rep for custom pcm tuning.They are a Canadian outfit.I didn't realize until now that they had dealers worldwide. I would trust these guys alot more than AUS guys.Check them out & see what you think.

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Old 02-24-2016, 09:33 PM
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Allright !

Bought!

Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons + Moly Rings Kit 030 355
Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons Moly Rings Kit 030 355 | eBay
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2016, 07:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Allright !

Bought!

Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons + Moly Rings Kit 030 355
Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons Moly Rings Kit 030 355 | eBay


Good deal !!! Did you go to Wester's Garage site yet to check out the high spider yet? These don't cost a lot more than a new stock replacement after the core charge is deducted.


www.westersgarage
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Old 02-25-2016, 07:09 AM
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Cool !
Yes i saw them, thanks for the link
but won't be buying now since the spider is brand new, maybe later or just complete intake upgrade
but we'll see how it works.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2016, 07:11 AM
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Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Cool !
Yes i saw them, thanks for the link
but won't be buying now since the spider is brand new
but we'll see how it works.
OK. Just wanted to give you something to consider if needed.
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Old 02-25-2016, 07:12 AM
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Yes i totally appreciate it !!!
Big thanks, already saved the link.
But i think the selftuning systems attracts me more each day.
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Old 02-25-2016, 09:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Yes i totally appreciate it !!!
Big thanks, already saved the link.
But i think the selftuning systems attracts me more each day.
Self tuning does sound good.LOL.
Just an FYI,I had called AUS & finally got a call back from them today.I talked to a Tech there named Ricardo.He was very helpful & explained how they upgrade the units.He said that they can provide any flow rate needed.I told him I was looking to supply for approx. 400 to 425 HP.He agreed that the 36 lb/hr unit would be way too much & suggested 26 to 28 lb/hr for that level on an N/A setup.Their units use the mini electric injectors that are on the upgraded GM units & they operate at the stock 58 to 65 fuel psi.He said they actually modify the injectors vs just increasing fuel psi to retain stock fuel psi.The units from Wester's,however,use the old style poppets with a higher fuel psi to gain flow. He said if you provide your specs & HP,they will supply a unit with proper flow,anywhere from the stock 21 lb/hr up to their max of,IIRC,62 lb/hr.
Ricardo was very helpful & seemed glad to discuss the units.I spent approx. 20 min on the phone with him.
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:01 AM
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I wouldn't go back to the old poppets so i think AUS is the way to
go if we decide to stay with the spider setup for a good while.
Thanks for the info, that's good !!!
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Old 02-25-2016, 10:57 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calderone View Post
Allright ! Bought! Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons + Moly Rings Kit 030 355
Chevy SBC 350 Flat Top Pistons Moly Rings Kit 030 355 | eBay
Looks like the SBC 350 Hyperute pistons I'll be using now that the KB (Keith Black/Silvolite) pistons have gone weird with a nasty valve relief slot/trough instead of 2 eyebrows and are nearly 3 times the price...

Working link for Wester's Garage:

http://westersgarage.eidnet.ca
.

Last edited by BuzzLOL; 02-25-2016 at 11:20 AM.
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Old 02-25-2016, 11:37 AM
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Wester's Garage has a notice:

* For "Forum Gurus" who have nothing better to do other than misquote us, these sets are flow matched, and the pressure increase provides the proper flow rate. SCPI injectors work by unseating a preloaded ball and spring with high pressure. They work better as pressure increases. These injector sets require ECM reprogramming or you will damage your engine. Fuel pressure must be a minimum of 55 PSI or the poppets may not open--they DO NOT OPEN at 50 PSI. CPI injectors do NOT fail at high pressure, like regular rail type injectors do, or like the upgraded replacement set you can purchase from GM. *
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Old 02-25-2016, 12:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzLOL View Post
Wester's Garage has a notice:

* For "Forum Gurus" who have nothing better to do other than misquote us, these sets are flow matched, and the pressure increase provides the proper flow rate. SCPI injectors work by unseating a preloaded ball and spring with high pressure. They work better as pressure increases. These injector sets require ECM reprogramming or you will damage your engine. Fuel pressure must be a minimum of 55 PSI or the poppets may not open--they DO NOT OPEN at 50 PSI. CPI injectors do NOT fail at high pressure, like regular rail type injectors do, or like the upgraded replacement set you can purchase from GM. *
I saw that.LOL. Back in 2007,i was keeping up with some of their work on these units & at that time,they were having problems with poppets as well at higher psi,but,would never disclose at exactly how much before running in to problems.
When we were fooling with them,we tried both,the poppets & the mini jectors.After 75 psi,the mini jectors & the poppets were very erratic & wouldn't fully shut off at all times.We were using stock used units with unknown miles,so,that could have been part of the problem.My cousins 96 pickup was the test mule.On the chasis dyno,he made 360 rwhp,but,was still very lean at WOT,which shows that the intake,while not the best,it can support upwards of 400 HP.At the end of his dyno run,he noticed the intake looked weird.It had actually gotten hot enough that the vacuum had started to suck it in from the lean conditions. AFR's were all over the place & were switching from 1 bank to the other from the erratic injector functioning.
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  #57 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
both systems have some draw backs. If running mini injectors you can buy the marine setup which sounds like what aus is selling. or the a holley fuel rain kit and drill injector ports into the manifold of your choice.

These work great for carb manifold conversion. Would fit on a victor jr intake and make some big power numbers. Probably free up another 25 hp. Good for a cheaper 100mm universal throttle body and just buy a fuel rail kit to add injectors to a aftermarket manifold. Than you can run a full controllable system like MS or even and older gm system like the l98 system you got the ability to tune.

fyi this is a aussie seller might find one closer to home or make your own.

Proflow TBN102 Thottle Body Intake Elbow 100mm Universal to 4150 4500 Square Bor | eBay


I really think the fi tech system will flow good and perform well. But haven't seen on in action but for 999 bucks for a complete system its hard to beat. The fast system looks like the same thing and cost extra 1000 bucks more. Just needs fuel and that can be handled easy enough. All your truck would need is an adjustable regulator for the system looks like your going to need one anyway no matter what system you choose.

FiTech Fuel Injection

Hope this helps.

Joker sounds like the sales rep told you exactly what you want to hear.
Yep.He had been reading this thread & already knew what to say....I asked him if the 36 lb/hr unit was the smallest they had & he said no,they could provide any flow rate & asked what HP level I had.I told him in the 400 to 425 HP range.He recommended 26 to 28 lb/hr & said it would be no problem.He also said there is a statement on the ads that plainly states that you need to make sure you have adequate need for 36 lb/hr before ordering because if it was too much,that it would not be returnable for that reason.The units on Ebay are units that are available off the shelf.Even Wester's 26 lb/hr unit is advertised to support 440 HP.
Also,these are not marine units.The marine unit is totally different setup & doesn't even use a spider.It has fuel rails & replaceable injectors.The AUS units are the upgraded versions that are installed in GM trucks & vans,or,sold as replacements for these units.The injectors have been modified for increased flow while maintaining stock 58 to 65 fuel psi.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old 02-25-2016, 01:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
At the end of his dyno run,he noticed the intake looked weird.It had actually gotten hot enough that the vacuum had started to suck it in from the lean conditions.
Where did all the heat come from? Exhaust crossover? External EGR? Surely it didn't soften at 230 degree engine heat?
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Old 02-25-2016, 02:01 PM
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Originally Posted by BuzzLOL View Post
Where did all the heat come from? Exhaust crossover? External EGR? Surely it didn't soften at 230 degree engine heat?
Running excessively lean.We couldn't get enough fuel to feed it.This was in 2007 rite after I had bought my new L31.At the time,i had no experience at all in EFI & wanted to add some more power to my new motor.My cousin,or,i should say cousin in law at the time had been fooling with this stuff for some time,so,I got involved with him while he was fooling with all this.I hadn't been involved with much of any type of performance work since the late 80's at the time.Been too busy raising 3 kids on my own.
He also ruined 2 brand new cat convertors during this little session.

Last edited by jokerZ71; 02-25-2016 at 02:13 PM.
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Old 02-26-2016, 09:20 AM
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Just wanted to pop in and offer some input. The stock CSFI poppets flow 23.1 lb/hr at the Vortecs mean pressure of 63 psi. The stock injector Flow Rate(IFR) that is inputted into the stock PCM's matches this number when converted from the grams/second to lbs/hour.

A Vortec 383 with ported Vortec heads, LT4 hotcam kit, headers etc made 330rwhp and 381 lb/ft torque which is about 395hp at the crank. This was on a Fastchip mail order tune.
The same equipement on a 350 made 310rwhp in the same truck.

The stock poppets and fuel system was used.

As stated by Joker and others, the stock poppets become unpredictable at high fuel pressure. When used with supercharger kits that use rising rate fuel pressure regulators, which bring the fuel pressure up from the stock 66 psi on a 1:1 basis, a 10 psi boost system makes 76 psi of fuel pressure.
Too much pressure on the upgraded MPFI spiders that GM retrofitted for free on California vehicles that use the Multec 2 mini injectors also do strange things at high pressure, they will actual lock closed.

I have to suggest getting away from the stock intake, and use a some variation that uses a conventional fuel; rail and externally mounted injectors.
The CSFI poppets are excellent in regards to injector targeting, no conventional injector can come close to the poppet.
Ramjet, marine or any other intake drilled for injectors would be better than the stock intake.
When I went from the CSFI intake to the marine intake and I used the same PCM calibration with the only ting changed was the IFR changed from the stock 23.1 lb/[email protected] to the marine intakes 28.8lb/[email protected] I had better off idle torque, and upper rpm breathing. It broke the tires loose with authority.

The marine intake has a plenum floor that is flat, where the CSFI intake is far from flat, no more injectors and fuel lines inside the plenum, its a GM part with OEM fit/finish and works with the supercharger kits, air intakes etc that are designed for the 1996-99 GMT 400 trucks with the Vortec 305/350 trucks.
If only they made lower plenum in the same material the upper is made of--aluminum, but I dropped the stock exhaust manifolds, so Im still ahead weight wise.

Its nice to see the interest in the L31 engines. Back in 2005-6 was fun times when we developed the Marine intake conversion and the 0411 PCM retrofit back when Tunercats OBD2 came on the market. TC2 allowed us to finally recalibrate our own blackbox PCM's at the shadetree level.

peace
Hog
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