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Old 11-07-2017, 05:55 PM
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$2000 paint failure

After a year of body work I finally painted my truck. I used PPG DCC single stage urethane. I chose a metallic and the results were horrible. I had tiger stripes & swirls. The paint itself is dynamite as far as durability. It's about 1 step below powder coat. That cost $700/gal. A body shop told me that unless I've been painting everyday for 10 years that no one can do single stage metallics. He suggested a BC/CC. I bought that and went to work. Base coat went well (so I thought) and I did the recommended 2 coats of clear. Went to sand it and immediately broke through. I also noticed that I had some bleed through where the base coat didn't cover. Sanded that & re-shot. It might as well have been a different color. Bought another gallon of clear and applied 4 coats total. ($700). Now I've got splotches and I still sand through. I know it doesn't add up to 2 grand but with primers & all I'm being conservative.
No shop will touch this thing so I'll have to finish it myself. I've decided to forgo the metallics and go with a pearl. Another body shop suggested I go with Rival which is an industrial line. Eastwood has a single stage blue pearl that's appealing for $115/gal. Any one have an opinion on this and can I shoot it over the old CC or do I need to another sealer?

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Old 11-07-2017, 06:26 PM
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you will get the same results with pearl .
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:29 PM
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Toyota, subaru and honda have a blue pearl so no go?
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Old 11-07-2017, 06:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belchfire View Post
After a year of body work I finally painted my truck. I used PPG DCC single stage urethane. I chose a metallic and the results were horrible. I had tiger stripes & swirls.

I am no expert but it sounds like you were putting too much paint on at once and recoating too soon
Iam laying , single stage PPG shopline metallic (fontaine blue) and I had a few instances where I had the same issue.

I found , as you will also, that a light coating , with a 50 percent overlap works well. Then wait the correct flash time and recoat with a similar thin layer. 2nd coat flash time is shorter than the time for a 3rd coat.Time need be allowed for solvent escapement, and the thicker the paint layer, the slower it evaporates hence the longer time between coats.
It doesnt work if you put on a thick layer . It will run, streak, tiger stripe (as you put it) and such.
As with any paint it takes some time to get the hang of it. I like the single stage
I am using acrylic urethane by PPG and it looks real good , now that I have had some practice laying it down and working with the product, observing flash times, recoat windows...etc.

Dont get discouraged. Try to learn from your mistakes, as you most certainly will.
Slow down.Get your gun handling technique correct first.Also learn the correct way to adjust the paint flow, and air pressure. I found that the HPLV guns need more pressure than they say they do. And it is a good Idea to have a gauge at the base of the gun on the inlet.Observe Minimum hose
diameter specs as volume of air is JUST AS IMPORTANT as pressure.

Watch this guy:


He is pretty informative and has a good explanation for how to swing a paint gun
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Old 11-07-2017, 07:01 PM
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Also , The body guys here have been a HUGE help to me also.

I drivejunk, DB, Martin Senour , all class acts. Very helpful guys.I am sure I missed someone so please forgive me If I dont remember
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Old 11-07-2017, 09:30 PM
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Ok, first of all forget the Pearl, pearl is even worse than metallic, so forget that.

Secondly, accept that you screwed up all this, it wasn't bad advice, you screwed up, now move forward. You have jumped into a pretty big project, you need to slow down a bit here and catch up.

On the complete metallic job having tiger stripes, LOLOL I had painted for years and was a paint rep and I went into a shop to paint a demo and did the same thing! SS metallics are a whole different animal and I hadn't painted any for years and when I did it wasn't a complete, so I wasn't ready for it and painted every friggin day!

That video LATECH posted is pretty damn cool, I have been watching it and listening as I type this, good stuff.

Getting an evenly thick coating over every square inch of the car isn't as hard as it sounds. You need to practice after you got some good study like that video.

Here is a "Basics of Basics" of mine on the subject. Spraying Technique - Autobodystore That video LATECH posted talks about this at about 22 minutes, good stuff. Now, I don't agree with every single thing, he isn't wrong, I just don't do it that way, but generally he does everything I do, just a bit different.

Then the cutting and buffing, yeow, you are expecting an awful lot with your little experience. Cutting more on body lines for instance, this is VERY hard and it takes some serious study and practice to not cut through on body lines. You have a long way to go, there is no way you could get all the answers from this thread. You need to step back and take a breath (with your respirator on. ) and study and do some practice on some test panels.

You can get test panels at most any body shop that is doing late model cars, they have to get rid of fenders, doors, hoods etc. every day, they are thrilled to give you a few to go home and scuff and shoot your paint over it. They are typically nice OEM painted panels that simply are dented. They can give you a great education in how to lay paint evenly.

Let's start with this and post questions when you find particular things you need work with.

Brian
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Old 11-07-2017, 10:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belchfire View Post
After a year of body work I finally painted my truck. I used PPG DCC single stage urethane. I chose a metallic and the results were horrible. I had tiger stripes & swirls. The paint itself is dynamite as far as durability. It's about 1 step below powder coat. That cost $700/gal. A body shop told me that unless I've been painting everyday for 10 years that no one can do single stage metallics. He suggested a BC/CC. I bought that and went to work. Base coat went well (so I thought) and I did the recommended 2 coats of clear. Went to sand it and immediately broke through. I also noticed that I had some bleed through where the base coat didn't cover. Sanded that & re-shot. It might as well have been a different color. Bought another gallon of clear and applied 4 coats total. ($700). Now I've got splotches and I still sand through. I know it doesn't add up to 2 grand but with primers & all I'm being conservative.
No shop will touch this thing so I'll have to finish it myself. I've decided to forgo the metallics and go with a pearl. Another body shop suggested I go with Rival which is an industrial line. Eastwood has a single stage blue pearl that's appealing for $115/gal. Any one have an opinion on this and can I shoot it over the old CC or do I need to another sealer?
Don't take the whole situation too personal, belch. Seasoned painters can have the same trouble with certain metallic basecoat colors. Until you spray a big panel and clear it, it can be dang hard to tell if your color is one thats tough to spray. Or to achieve full coverage with. Kinda luck of the draw but I believe certain mixing toners are more likely to want to come out splotchy. The single stage metallic is normally mire difficult to make look even, from what I have heard.

In any event, and I do wish you the best luck from here on out because I know how it is, it sure sounds to me like you will want 3 good coats of clear this time. If you have break throughs and maybe thin spots, yep you may want to use sealer again. But technically you could just go over the existing finish. Experience says use caution this go around, because the existing finish may be awful sensitive to solvent. Lifting, at this point, could make you throw your gun. Nobody wants that!
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Old 11-08-2017, 08:22 AM
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lighting

You need good lighting to be able to see how the stuff is laying. It's been a few years since I painted any automotive. I have been going thru a lot of house paint with an airless. 6 k SQ ft footprint on our building project. I used to hold a trouble light in one hand and the gun in the other when spraying in the garage. But we used to ride without a helment, drink water from a hose, etc. and 80 gets closer every day.
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Old 11-08-2017, 12:54 PM
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Thanks for the advise. The video was very good. The wall of air trick might help with the rough finish I've been getting. Sometimes my ADHD gets the better of me and I rush things. I think I'll go with the single stage because it's so tough.
For a daily driver that cut & buff isn't worth it. I was told to sand the last paint job so that it can breathe and be a cured base for the next time. Getting to the "you don't want to paint" time of the year so I'll work on the wiring & brakes until it warms up again.
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Old 11-08-2017, 05:37 PM
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There's a whole bunch of Kevin Tetz's stuff on the Eastwood U-tube channel, most excellent stuff to learn from. I spent ton of time watching him before I painted my Model A, and now every time I watch somebody paint I can point out stuff they're doing "wrong", at least from what I learned/know. Gun technique is VERY important, and something I see a lot taking liberties with.

I do question the 2 coats of clear, in my research most recommend 3-5 coats of clear, especially for novices that tend to put it on thin. What are you using for paper to sand it with, if you're down in the 1000-2000 or more you shouldn't have issues with cutting through

You're getting good advice, learn from it and your mistakes and move on.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:11 PM
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I feel your pain. After a four year frame off restoration I also have a horrible paint problem. I also used PPG DCC but my problem was well intended but bad advice. A guy that had his own body shop for 40 years let me use his paint booth and when I went to mix the base coat he told me I was just wasting money using a hardener in the base coat if I was going to use clear coat. So, I didn't. I shot three coats of DCC base without hardener and three coats of clear with hardener. Big mistake. The DCC base MUST have hardener in it or it will not harden either as a single stage or under clear. My paint immediately began to shrink and split. I spoke to the tech experts at PPG and they said you can apply their BCC without hardener if you're going to clear coat over it and it will harden just fine but with the DCC the hardener has to be used. They said it's going to continue to shrink and split because the clear wants to shrink and since it's sitting on a bed of gooey jelly there's nothing to stop it.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread. I'm trying to warn others. When it happened I talked to a half dozen experienced body men and the all told me they never use hardener in a base coat when they are going to put clear over it. Well, that is not the case with all base coats. To hell with how it's "always been done." Go with the manufacturer's instructions.
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Old 11-08-2017, 06:25 PM
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Always read the product spec sheet. PPG puts them where you can get em easy


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Old 11-08-2017, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
I feel your pain. After a four year frame off restoration I also have a horrible paint problem. I also used PPG DCC but my problem was well intended but bad advice. A guy that had his own body shop for 40 years let me use his paint booth and when I went to mix the base coat he told me I was just wasting money using a hardener in the base coat if I was going to use clear coat. So, I didn't. I shot three coats of DCC base without hardener and three coats of clear with hardener. Big mistake. The DCC base MUST have hardener in it or it will not harden either as a single stage or under clear. My paint immediately began to shrink and split. I spoke to the tech experts at PPG and they said you can apply their BCC without hardener if you're going to clear coat over it and it will harden just fine but with the DCC the hardener has to be used. They said it's going to continue to shrink and split because the clear wants to shrink and since it's sitting on a bed of gooey jelly there's nothing to stop it.

I'm not trying to hijack this thread. I'm trying to warn others. When it happened I talked to a half dozen experienced body men and the all told me they never use hardener in a base coat when they are going to put clear over it. Well, that is not the case with all base coats. To hell with how it's "always been done." Go with the manufacturer's instructions.
I have to tell you, you got bad advice you know that, but you also chose the wrong product. That is a SS product that "can" be clear coated like every SS product.

If you are going to shoot basecoat clear coat 2 stage use the 2stage system from the start.

Brian
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:16 AM
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painting with lacquer was one of the best things to teach gun setting and control . you had to build the coat .
for a novice met or pearl is not the best of choices but it is not the end of the world. but the problem will be finish. no cut and buff . if you go with bc/cc activate the base coat to eliminate the weak link .
at this point a good sanding and letting set in the sun a few days is a must .
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Old 11-09-2017, 07:20 AM
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I know now that it wasn't the best choice for a two stage base coat. This was the first car I ever painted and I went with the recommendation of the people at the paint store. Still, if I had used hardener, I think it would have been ok. I'm not sure how a first time painter can possibly understand all there is to know to make the right decisions without relying on some advice. I've learned a lot through this experience but the most important thing I've learned is that if you're as ignorant as I was about paint don't trust anyone's advice. Call the manufacturer's tech service line and follow their advice to the letter.
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