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Old 11-11-2018, 01:59 PM
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351 W Intake Choice

I'm building a 351W to make 325-350 hp. It's going in a '67 Fairlane and will see street use only. It will be mated to a T-5 and 3:50 gears. I'm looking at the Edelbrock Performer and the Weiand Stealth intake manifolds. Any preferences out there? Why?

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Old 11-11-2018, 02:19 PM
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Weiand Stealth 8023, the Summit Stage 2(copy of the 8023), Edelbrock Performer RPM, and Professional Products Typhoon are all 10-15HP better than the plain Performer.
Probably all will require a drop base air cleaner to fit under a stock Fairlane hood.

Personally, I'd save the money and use either Summits copy of the Weiand 8023(made by the same foundry) or the Typhoon...the Performer RPM isn't worth another $100 for the possible 2 more HP it might make.

Heads are going to be where you make or break on the 325-350 hp goal on a 351W...what'cha using??
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Old 11-11-2018, 03:27 PM
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Agree with Eric, and I like a manifold that is solidly separated all the way to the carb base like the Weiand, not relieved at the center divider like an Edelbrock. Further, I very strongly discourage use of an air gap design on a street motor. Many fellows have reported instances of poor drivability in cool or cold weather. I attribute this to the fact that there is insufficient heat retained in the manifold to help atomize larger droplets of liquid fuel (which will not burn), so you get chugging and coughing from the motor. If you want to mat the loud pedal every time at the drag strip, then knock yourself out with a cold manifold because that application does not require modulation of the carb butterflies like a street driver does. I really like the Typhoon, for its 5.120" height. Taller is better. 'Nuff said.

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Old 11-11-2018, 03:57 PM
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Eric,

I'm not Jay Leno so cost is a consideration in all aspects of this build. I'm thinking Edelbrock E Street heads - for price, but leaning towards Twisted Wedge. I'm having trouble justifying the extra $400. I'm thinking about springing for a custom ground cam. I'll be using Keith Black pistons that will give 10.1 compression with a 58 cc head. Also planning on long tube headers.
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:02 PM
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Techinspector1,

I've read a lot of negative reports on the air gap on a street car. i'm actually thinking about the Performer and not the RPM for the performance off idle. Height is a consideration too as I don't want to poke a hole in the hood.
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:23 PM
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If you saw some of the stuff posted on YouTube regarding how well the Edelbrock heads are machined and the quality of the parts used to assemble them, you wouldn't even consider them....you'd be better of with import heads like Flo-Tek or Blueprint than any of the E series Edelbrocks.
Edelbrock is just getting you to pay extra for their name, quality is poor on their lower priced heads.

Flo-Tek and BluePrint can be found at Speedway Motors
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:24 PM
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Twisted Wedge 190's by a country mile....... Can't afford 'em today, save up for a couple of months. I like tellin' the story of building my roadster. I wanted a set of All American coilovers for $550, but didn't have the cash, so I had to budget $50 a week for 11 weeks. The wait was worth it.
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Old 11-11-2018, 04:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
Techinspector1,
I've read a lot of negative reports on the air gap on a street car. i'm actually thinking about the Performer and not the RPM for the performance off idle. Height is a consideration too as I don't want to poke a hole in the hood.
You won't have any carb stud interference in a '67 Fairlane if you use proper motor mounts and stands.

The Performer might have better response immediately off-idle, but only up to 1500, where the taller manifold takes over and runs better than a single plane intake to 5500-6000. If it is important to you to make power between idle and 1500, then go for it.....

With a small British roadster, you might find some room for a taller manifold by massaging the motor mounts and using a drop base for the air filter, or even mounting the air filter remotely. Personally, I wouldn't let ANYTHING get in the way of a taller dual-plane intake manifold for street use.
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Old 11-11-2018, 06:35 PM
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Techinspector1,

I just finished a five year, show car restoration on the MGA. The 351 is definitely not going in that car. It's going in a '67 Fairlane coupe. However, I don't want to put a hole in that hood either.

So, if I go with the 10 to 1 pistons with the Twisted Wedge heads, the Performer RPM, 750 Holley and long tube headers am I going to achieve my goal of 325 - 350 hp?
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Old 11-11-2018, 08:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
Techinspector1,

I just finished a five year, show car restoration on the MGA. The 351 is definitely not going in that car. It's going in a '67 Fairlane coupe. However, I don't want to put a hole in that hood either.

So, if I go with the 10 to 1 pistons with the Twisted Wedge heads, the Performer RPM, 750 Holley and long tube headers am I going to achieve my goal of 325 - 350 hp?
If you are talking at the flywheel - Easily!.

With a 230-ish duration @.050 cam you could be looking at a 430HP package with those heads.

350HP should be doable with q 208 @.050" cam
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Old 11-12-2018, 06:38 AM
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Wow! 430 HP is waaaaaay more than I was looking for - or maybe even want. The 8" Trac Lok is going to be overwhelmed. Are there some less expensive heads I can go with that will still get me to 325 - 350? I don't plan to race this car. Strictly a cruiser. I want this engine to have a great sound and idle and push me into the seat. It doesn't have to be a 12 second car.

Did you determine the 430 hp from a formula or is it derived from your experience and knowledge?

I greatly appreciate both of you for sharing your knowledge with me.
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Old 11-12-2018, 07:13 AM
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These days it is pretty easy to build in excess of 400 hp and that under 6000 RPM with modern intake and head designs, you almost have to work harder to avoid that end. That is of course engine dyno power with free flowing long tube headers, actual installation with intake and exhaust system space related compromises certainly eat into those numbers. By that the intake starts at the air cleaner which is dictated by available hood height and intake height. Just getting the air into the carbs air horn can be a big power robber. Then the exhaust headers in a tight engine compartment is another. So installation compromises will easily lower these 400 hp numbers down to 350.

Physics being what physics is you will find that similar cam timing, valve sizes, combustion chamber configurations, and compression ratios between a wedge Ford 351, Chevy 350, or Chrysler 360 delivers very similar power numbers. There is plenty of info out there that shows that these engines with a cam that times and lifts in the neighborhood of the Comp XE268H, with GTP, Vortec, or Magnum heads at about 9.5 to 1 will on an engine dyno deliver right in the neighborhood of 400 hp. The details of porting, rocker ratios, valve sizes, intake, carb choices, etc. push the numbers around from about 380 to 410. After market heads will push the numbers toward the upper end or a bit higher with less effort to porting and rocker ratios for example.

This power level with these modern components is far from a high strung engine. This is very streetable without needing stiff gears and with a manual shifting you arm to exhaustion, if an automatic cam's in this timing range are at the upper end of factory stall and are probably easier to live with on the street with a 2500 RPM converter, but don't require anything amazing.

Bogie
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:16 PM
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Since you aren't trying to bust an 8" Trac loc, or your wallet(that 351 is easily capable of busting that T-5 also, by the way)....the Flo-Teks would be right up your alley. A proven quality head, just not the highest flowing aftermarket aluminum head available, they'd be at least 40 Hp down compared to the Trick Flows but still be a big upgrade from any stock '71-up 351 or 302 head other than the possible exception of the GT-40 and GT-40P heads which would only be slightly behind the Flo-Teks in power potential.
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Old 11-12-2018, 04:41 PM
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Thanks Bogie and thanks Eric,

I was going to ask about the GT-40 heads.

Joe
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Old 11-12-2018, 07:37 PM
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Ya know, I've been kicking this combo around for about 2 hours now, and here is the conclusion I have come to after re-reading the OP's mission statement several times.

Bore the block 0.030" and fit pistons for 0.0015" to 0.0002" piston to wall clearance. Gap top ring at 0.026", gap second ring at 0.017".
file:///C:/Users/joanc/AppData/Local/Packages/Microsoft.MicrosoftEdge_8wekyb3d8bbwe/TempState/Downloads/kb_installation%20(1).pdf
Pistons are 19.5 cc's in a step-dish configuration and will produce a static compression ratio of 9.5:1 when used with a 58cc combustion chamber. This motor will make all the power you need at 9.5 and will be more resistant to detonation. I've been wrenching for 65 years and this is the motor I'd build for myself.
KB303KTM-030 kit includes pistons and rings. I believe Spiro-locks are included in the event that you want to full-float the pins.

Cut the block decks to 9.480" block deck height and use Fel-Pro 1011-1 composition gaskets. Piston deck height will be zero and Squish-quench will be 0.041". (Crankshaft radius is 1.750", rod length is 5.956", piston compression height is 1.774". Added together, this makes a STACK of 9.480")

Flo-Tek 180 aluminum heads
https://www.speedwaymotors.com/Flo-T...ead,46332.html

Scorpion roller rockers, 1.6 ratio, 3/8" studs. Will free-up 20+ hp due to reduction of friction and also will lower oil operating temperature.
https://www.summitracing.com/parts/s...1017/overview/

Howards CL221275-12 retrofit hydraulic roller cam and lifters kit
270/278 advertised duration
217/225 0.050" duration
0.528"/0.533" valve lift
1200-5000 operating range. Will rev higher, but motor will be on the downside of the cam. Will cruise well at 1700 and higher. Should make great mileage at 1700/1800.
Flo-Tek says their springs are good to 0.550" lift, but check for coil bind at full lift. Use feeler gauge blades between the coils.

600/650/700/750 carburetor on Typhoon intake, 14" X 4" air filter element so the motor can breathe. Smaller primaries will add crispness to the motor. Hook up PCV and run distributor vacuum cannister off full manifold vacuum, NOT PORTED VACUUM. Put 12 degrees initial in at the crank and limit full initial/centrifugal to no more than 34. I have used only Carter AFB's and Edelbrock Performers since the late 60's and have found them to perform flawlessly when properly tuned. Edelbrock publishes a bulletproof tuning manual. Limit fuel pressure at the carburetor inlet to no more than 5 psi.
https://www.edelbrock.com/pub/media/...ers-manual.pdf

1 1/2" or 1 5/8" full-length headers using 3/8" thickness flanges. Thinner flanges will warp up from the heat of operation and spit out the gaskets. X-pipe or H-pipe immediately after collectors. Run pipes to rear bumper through mufflers of your choice to prevent car sounding like a Ricky Racer ride and having all the old guys laugh at you.

When someone asks you what the hp is, tell 'em THREE-SEVENTY. More than that would skin the gears off the shafts in the box anyway.

.

Last edited by techinspector1; 11-12-2018 at 08:07 PM.
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