400 SBC Street Strip Ignition Recommendation Needed - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-14-2019, 09:39 AM
2001Blazer4x4's Avatar
Redneck Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 791
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 168 Times in 143 Posts
Well, if it's always heat related then it's likely a fuel supply issue and/or boiling the fuel in the lines / fuel bowl.

Some things that can help:
  • 160 thermostat - or no thermostat
  • Taking the hood off
  • Using air cleaner that doesn't surround the carb or running without the air cleaner
  • Blocking heat crossover port in intake manifold completely.
  • Installing air-gap intake manifold
  • Improving fuel supply (bigger hoses/lines/filters, better pump)
  • Re-routing fuel lines away from heat sources
  • Raising fuel pressure (so less likely to boil in the lines)
  • Using a wood or phenolic carb spacer to insulate carb from intake
  • better cooling fan(s)
  • Use of electric water pump/fans to bring engine temp down before the run
  • Use of a fuel cool-can. Runs fuel through tubing in ice water right before going into carb.
  • Also ignition timing can have an effect on engine temperature. Not enough timing = runs hot.
  • AFR gauge to see what is going on with the fuel mix during these times of lower power.
  • Running with more gas in the tank, or different gas in the tank.
It really does sound like it is running out of fuel if the first part of the run is OK. So upgrading the fuel lines, filters, and pump may be the best way to go. Unfortunately it's pretty expensive.
I almost forgot to ask.... do your heads have the additional steam holes drilled so they will work correctly on the 400 block? You said they were purchased for a 350, so the manufacturer would not have done this for you.

    Advertisement

Last edited by 2001Blazer4x4; 08-14-2019 at 10:05 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 2001Blazer4x4 For This Useful Post:
vinniekq2 (08-14-2019)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2019, 08:21 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 166
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2001Blazer4x4 View Post
Well, if it's always heat related then it's likely a fuel supply issue and/or boiling the fuel in the lines / fuel bowl.

Some things that can help:
  • 160 thermostat - or no thermostat
  • Taking the hood off
  • Using air cleaner that doesn't surround the carb or running without the air cleaner
  • Blocking heat crossover port in intake manifold completely.
  • Installing air-gap intake manifold
  • Improving fuel supply (bigger hoses/lines/filters, better pump)
  • Re-routing fuel lines away from heat sources
  • Raising fuel pressure (so less likely to boil in the lines)
  • Using a wood or phenolic carb spacer to insulate carb from intake
  • better cooling fan(s)
  • Use of electric water pump/fans to bring engine temp down before the run
  • Use of a fuel cool-can. Runs fuel through tubing in ice water right before going into carb.
  • Also ignition timing can have an effect on engine temperature. Not enough timing = runs hot.
  • AFR gauge to see what is going on with the fuel mix during these times of lower power.
  • Running with more gas in the tank, or different gas in the tank.
It really does sound like it is running out of fuel if the first part of the run is OK. So upgrading the fuel lines, filters, and pump may be the best way to go. Unfortunately it's pretty expensive.
I almost forgot to ask.... do your heads have the additional steam holes drilled so they will work correctly on the 400 block? You said they were purchased for a 350, so the manufacturer would not have done this for you.
All good suggestions(except taking the hood off for Pete's sake this isn't an episode of Roadkill!!!)

-I already have a 160' Thermostat, but the "three row equivilant" replacement radiator I got from Advance Auto isn't quite up to keeping the car cool during hot laps at the drag strips. The temp winds up climbing to almost 200.
-I'm not taking the hood off, i already have an open element air cleaner, no heat crossover with RPM intake, still running stock fuel lines but I did just install an Edelbrock mech fuel pump to replace the stocker, I can't raise the fuel pressure as the Edelbrock carbs don't like it, thought about a carb spacer but the hood barely closes now, not a race car so I'm not using a cooling can or electric water pump, Yes, my heads do have the steam holes drilled - did it when I put them on the 400.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2019, 08:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 166
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Worked on the car this weekend. Ordered an MSD billet HEI from Advance Auto so I could get the 20% off. Went to pick it up Sat morning and the seal was broken, had greasy fingerprints all over the box and distributor. How disappointing. I just told them "no thanks".

I did get the 800 1412 800cfm Edelbrock bolted up and tuned in nicely. Stepped the primary rods a couple of steps richer to get rid of the off idle bog it was producing. Also hooked my vacuum advance back up as well to help with off idle and fuel mileage(HA!). I do drive the car to work and back quite a bit and can knock down over 15 mpg, but drops to 11-12 with the vac advance disconnected. Also used a B&M kit to play with the governor on my 700R4. Was shifting at 4500 rpm with the stock weights. It's now shifting 1-2 at 5500 and 2-3 at 6000. Not sure why the difference, but I'll keep playing with it. It will be nice to get it shifting on it's own so I don't have to row the column shifter at the drag strip. Did quite a bit of back road testing today and never experienced the nose over at 5000 I was experiencing intermittantly before. My seat of pants dyno is telling me the car is making more power with the 800. Pretty hard to control the wheel sping in first gear now, even with rolling into the throttle. Hopefully it shows on the time slips at the track, but won't be able to get back for a couple of weeks.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2019, 09:16 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 12,187
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 840
Thanked 1,440 Times in 1,330 Posts
when you post your new ETs also post mph as that is more important
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to vinniekq2 For This Useful Post:
callmewaylon (08-18-2019)
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 08-18-2019, 09:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 166
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
when you post your new ETs also post mph as that is more important
Absolutely!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Yesterday, 09:34 AM
2001Blazer4x4's Avatar
Redneck Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 791
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 168 Times in 143 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by callmewaylon View Post
All good suggestions(except taking the hood off for Pete's sake this isn't an episode of Roadkill!!!)

-I already have a 160' Thermostat, but the "three row equivilant" replacement radiator I got from Advance Auto isn't quite up to keeping the car cool during hot laps at the drag strips. The temp winds up climbing to almost 200.
-I'm not taking the hood off, i already have an open element air cleaner, no heat crossover with RPM intake, still running stock fuel lines but I did just install an Edelbrock mech fuel pump to replace the stocker, I can't raise the fuel pressure as the Edelbrock carbs don't like it, thought about a carb spacer but the hood barely closes now, not a race car so I'm not using a cooling can or electric water pump, Yes, my heads do have the steam holes drilled - did it when I put them on the 400.
I think you are really missing my point. I'm not really interested in what you are willing (or not willing) to do, especially when you poo-poo my advice. I was simply giving you possibilities that you could use for diagnosis. The rest is up to you to figure out. No one here is going to be able to give you a canned answer.

p.s. the Edelbrock 7101 Performer RPM manifold you claim to have does have a heat crossover passage. Look it up in the photos in the Jegs web site.
p.p.s. both Jegs and Summit sell house brand small cap billet distributors that are exactly the same as the MSD (but a lot cheaper) - I guess MSD does say MSD on the wire retainer, and Summit has a black cap. You can also find these distributors on ebay for even less as generic but they don't include the spring and bushing kit. They are all made of Chinesium, obviously by the same foreign manufacturer. If you don't like the price of the MSD cap, just use a GM points style distributor cap/rotor.

Last edited by 2001Blazer4x4; Yesterday at 09:48 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Yesterday, 10:16 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 166
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2001Blazer4x4 View Post
I think you are really missing my point. I'm not really interested in what you are willing (or not willing) to do, especially when you poo-poo my advice. I was simply giving you possibilities that you could use for diagnosis. The rest is up to you to figure out. No one here is going to be able to give you a canned answer.

p.s. the Edelbrock 7101 Performer RPM manifold you claim to have does have a heat crossover passage. Look it up in the photos in the Jegs web site.
p.p.s. both Jegs and Summit sell house brand small cap billet distributors that are exactly the same as the MSD (but a lot cheaper) - I guess MSD does say MSD on the wire retainer, and Summit has a black cap. You can also find these distributors on ebay for even less as generic but they don't include the spring and bushing kit. They are all made of Chinesium, obviously by the same foreign manufacturer. If you don't like the price of the MSD cap, just use a GM points style distributor cap/rotor.
My intention was not to "poo poo" anyone's advice and appreciate all input given. I was just trying to let you know what I had and hadn't done and what I was willing to do. Hard to list everything out individually though I know that it may be one of the small details. And, I stand corrected on the heat riser in the manifold, but my Performer RPM heads don't have any heat riser so that's what I must have been thinking about.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Yesterday, 10:52 AM
2001Blazer4x4's Avatar
Redneck Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 791
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 168 Times in 143 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by callmewaylon View Post
My intention was not to "poo poo" anyone's advice and appreciate all input given. I was just trying to let you know what I had and hadn't done and what I was willing to do. Hard to list everything out individually though I know that it may be one of the small details. And, I stand corrected on the heat riser in the manifold, but my Performer RPM heads don't have any heat riser so that's what I must have been thinking about.
Fair enough on not having a heat riser passage on your heads. I did not expect that since my AFR 195 heads still do have a heat riser passage. With the AFR's you have to get into the 210s before the heat riser is blocked.

I'm afraid that you might never be able to hot lap a 400 SBC unless you are willing to do at least some of these things. I think you know the 400 SBC is notorious for running hot.

I still think you should be in the high 11's if you can 60' at 1.9 on street tires (even if you add some extra weight by being big). I'm 280# in a 2900# vehicle. I keep telling my wife that mine could go 10's if she was driving, but she's scared to do it and still likes to come watch! I think she gets more excited than I do these days. I remember when my legs used to shake from excitement during staging when I was a teenager. Now I have a routine and that keeps me calmer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Yesterday, 11:06 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 166
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2001Blazer4x4 View Post
Fair enough on not having a heat riser passage on your heads. I did not expect that since my AFR 195 heads still do have a heat riser passage. With the AFR's you have to get into the 210s before the heat riser is blocked.

I'm afraid that you might never be able to hot lap a 400 SBC unless you are willing to do at least some of these things. I think you know the 400 SBC is notorious for running hot.

I still think you should be in the high 11's if you can 60' at 1.9 on street tires (even if you add some extra weight by being big). I'm 280# in a 2900# vehicle. I keep telling my wife that mine could go 10's if she was driving, but she's scared to do it and still likes to come watch! I think she gets more excited than I do these days. I remember when my legs used to shake from excitement during staging when I was a teenager. Now I have a routine and that keeps me calmer.
Yeah, it's odd that the Performer RPM intake has the heat riser but the Performer RPM heads don't. I don't necessarily want to do hot laps, just that when I did it is when the nosing over happened. I'd be pretty darn happy with some lower 12's but I'll update the post after I make it back to the track.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Yesterday, 08:56 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Zephyrhills, Florida, USA
Age: 77
Posts: 16,732
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 1,817
Thanked 2,709 Times in 2,038 Posts
In the past, one of the things I have done that didn't cost anything and didn't make the car undriveable during the week was to space the rear of the hood up 1 or 1 1/2 inches with wood spacers to allow underhood heat to escape. Just use an awl to mark the outline of the hinge location on the underside of the hood so that you can get the hood back in the same position, use some longer bolts and badda bing, badda boom, you're runnin' cooler. Not only that, but you can run more spacer.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to techinspector1 For This Useful Post:
vinniekq2 (Today)
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Today, 07:58 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: TX
Posts: 3,788
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 36
Thanked 430 Times in 400 Posts
I spaced up the back of my hood 6 inches on my 1969 Firebird 400 in 1970 in an attempt to make the engine run cooler. I did not think anyone recommended that old school modification any more. At least I have not seen it done in the last fifteen years. in my case, it helped somewhat but not enough, even with 8.00x15 Goodyear slicks that would reduce engine RPM. The purpose behind the raised hood trick was to allow more air to escape from under the hood and promote more flow through the radiator, rather than around the radiator.

My Firebird ran hot because it had a standard radiator and 4.33:1 Safe-T-Track. I could not drive at highway speeds in summer under any circumstances. I had to trailer my Firebird to the drag strip and cool down between rounds.

I gave up trying to make it run cooler. The 4.33:1 gear ratio was too much gear for the radiator and thermo controlled fan to overcome at least a constant speed over 50 MPH on a +90 degree day.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Today, 08:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 166
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
I can report that after hooking my vacuum advance up(had it unhooked with the old trans due to some pinging issues with a tight stock converter) the engine runs much cooler all the time and rarely hits 190 sitting in traffic. Reminds me of breaking a cam in without enough timing and seeing the headers glow red, stopping and advancing the timing and it running cooler.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Today, 08:39 AM
2001Blazer4x4's Avatar
Redneck Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 791
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 168 Times in 143 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by callmewaylon View Post
I can report that after hooking my vacuum advance up(had it unhooked with the old trans due to some pinging issues with a tight stock converter) the engine runs much cooler all the time and rarely hits 190 sitting in traffic. Reminds me of breaking a cam in without enough timing and seeing the headers glow red, stopping and advancing the timing and it running cooler.
Glad to hear it. I did mention the timing back in post 16. Looks like you're past the worst of your issues.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Today, 08:44 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Posts: 166
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 5
Thanked 11 Times in 9 Posts
It will be nice once traction is my only issue!

Right now trying to get the 700R4 shifting where I want it. Picked up a B&M governor kit and went from full throttle upshifts at 4500 in D to 5500 for 1-2 and 6000 for 2-3. Need to get 5500 1-2 up to 6000 without effecting the 2-3 shift, but I that's a little off topic.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Today, 09:18 AM
2001Blazer4x4's Avatar
Redneck Professional
 
Join Date: Jan 2015
Location: Indiana
Posts: 791
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 98
Thanked 168 Times in 143 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by callmewaylon View Post
I can report that after hooking my vacuum advance up(had it unhooked with the old trans due to some pinging issues with a tight stock converter) the engine runs much cooler all the time and rarely hits 190 sitting in traffic. Reminds me of breaking a cam in without enough timing and seeing the headers glow red, stopping and advancing the timing and it running cooler.
Glad to hear it. I did mention the timing back in post 16. Looks like you're past the worst of your issues.

Now just get a centrifugal advance curve where you can shoot for total timing (centrifugal only) of 34-36, all in below 3500 rpm.

That MSD you tried to buy from Autozone (or the Summit or Jegs) - use the blue centrifugal stop bushing (this is the one it comes installed with) with 1 heavy silver and 1 light silver spring (or 1 light silver and 1 light blue spring if you want it to reach max centrifugal sooner). Set for total maximum centrifugal advance and let the initial timing fall where it may (but it will probably end up around 14-16). Then add a vac advance pot that give you 12-14 additional crank degrees at below whatever vacuum your vehicle idles at in drive and hook that up to manifold vacuum. It's important that the vacuum pot be fully advanced at below idle vacuum.

Doing it this way will give you coolest running engine with the most power. This is the way I used to have mine set up - now timing is locked out. Others might recommend ported vacuum, but that's just going to make it run hotter at idle.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.