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Old 08-27-2014, 10:44 AM
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400sbc tbi help

I'm building a 400sbc with 454 tbi injectors for my rock buggy and need a little help.I have a 12-212-2 comp sitting on the shelve it has 110 lobe separation,230 duration 480 lift.My question is can I run a set of vmax lifters to decrease duration and increase vaccum,or should I just count on getting a chip burnt for it?

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Old 08-27-2014, 11:57 AM
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. I'd do both...
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:45 PM
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What HP are you shooting for in the build.Below 350 HP,the 454 injectors have a lot of problems @ idle,low speed operation,which for the usage you are stating would be quite often.You would be better off using smaller injectors & increasing fuel psi.The 230 duration is gonna be a PITA to tune for as it is.You really need a wider LSA.You're gonna have to get a chip burned for it either way you go.No way around it.
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Old 08-27-2014, 12:49 PM
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I had vmax, they were noisy. The bleed down rate varies and is oil dependant and there is no way to tune for the ever changing viscosity of oil.

Perhaps less cam, arent rock buggys geared hi and need useable low end torque? 230 @ .050 is a 1/4 mile RPM cam.

In any case you will need a custom chip by an experienced tuner to get the speed density system to function right with a cam change.
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Old 08-27-2014, 01:11 PM
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I'm geared 5:13 in the axles th400 with 3000 stall,it will be idle most of the time with wide open throttle snaps.im running manual brakes ,I was reading that with the 400 sbc they recomend running 454 injectors.
Anyone recommend someone who can burn a chip that won't cost me an arm and a leg?
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:15 PM
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Your injector sizing is based on HP requirements,not cubic inches.Normally,the 350 or 350 police injectors work better @ a higher psi for 340 HP & below.The 454 injectors have trouble with idle & low rpm in HP ranges below 350.
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Old 08-27-2014, 02:49 PM
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Check out info on TBI @ Brian Harris TBI Chips site,CFM TEch,or,for really indepth tuning/TBI info,go to the TBI section @ 3rdGen.org.
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Old 08-27-2014, 03:00 PM
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Harris Performance, INC

GM Fuel injection for the average guy

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Recommended 350 TBI mods



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1. Exhaust, You need to start there because doesn’t matter how much you improve the air going in, if you can’t get it out it will run poorly and the stock exhaust is terrible. Well the KEY issues with the exhaust is the Y pipe and the catalytic converter. GM intentionally made that Y pipe restrictive to increase back pressure and most have paid someone to spread a myth that back pressure in the exhaust is GOOD. Its NOT. Air velocity is good not back pressure. The reason for the back pressure was so that the EGR smog system would work better and the increased pressure would build up a lot of heat to keep the o2 sensor hot. A good free flowing exhaust does typically need a 3 wire heated o2 sensor conversion to maintain its temperature. To fix 90% of the exhaust issues, I recommend a Flowmaster Y250300 collector from your favorite vendor and replace that section of Y pipe where the 2 pipes merge. Dramatic improvement over that stock GM design. As for the cat, I know most say it should fall off and turn a blind eye but I personally don’t like the smell of the exhaust with no cat and want to do my part towards our environment as well. you can search ebay for THUNDERBOLT 3 CATALYTIC and those high flow cats are like $50. As for headers, not really recommended on engines under 300hp and for muffler, you want an aggressive sound that’s fine pick from several. I have been using a FULL BOAR SS muffler off ebay which are stainless and cheap and flow well but not going to be a huge gain in power. the Y pipe will add a noticeable amount though and will help support more modifications.I clipped this picture from my latest Hot Rod magazine on choosing the size of your exhaust pipe.

2. The cam in the TBI engine is just plain AWFUL. Specs on Stock TBI cam is .050″ tappet lift (intake/exhaust) is 165/175; and maximum lift with 1.5:1 rocker ratio (intake/exhaust) is .382/.402. I got those specs right off the Jegs website selling the new GM replacement TBI crate engines. Valve springs are also VERY important due to the stock ones having a redline of 4500 rpm. I have run these engines with better cams and stock valve springs up to 5000 rpms with no issues but its not going to be recommended. Cam, stage 2chip and exhaust mods are going to net you a good 50-60hp on that pathetic stock 180hp 350 TBI motor. (factory 210hp rating was a bit optimistic from my dyno testing) cam choice in my opinion is the most important decision you make on that engine as its not only the easiest way to screw up TBI injection but it also sets the whole attitude for how that engine is going to run and whether it has good low end power or strong mid range or strong top end power. I have listed a bunch of new cams at the bottom of the page. This should provide you with a sufficient assortment of cams for whatever power range you want for your motor. If you still don’t know what cam to use, email me at [email protected] all of your engine and vehicle details and I will gladly recommend a cam for you.
Roller versus flat tappet cams. All 1987 blocks have the provisions for the roller cam just the trucks didn’t get them. However in some 93, all 1994 and 1995 engines GM stopped drilling and tapping the bolt holes in the those provisions in the block. Roller cam will give you the same power as a flat tappet cam that is about 15 degrees duration bigger or about 10-15hp more than the same duration flat tappet cam. This allows you to run a milder roller cam that gives you better low end torque and horsepower and have the same peak horsepower as a cam that will have weaker low end power. If you can afford to go roller, GO ROLLER.
3. Rocker arms. I have had a lot of questions about rockers and I have had a lot of customers having issues with all the cheap rocker options. So I no longer recommend changing the rockers on TBI motors as the amount of power you gain on these mild engines isn’t going to justify spending $300 on quality roller rockers.
4. The Heads. The TBI heads are the worst flowing heads GM ever released. If your rebuilding the motor, don’t waste ANY money on those pitiful poor flowing TBI heads. Valve springs and a good magnaflux and valve job will cost you a couple hundred or more and that money could have been spent on decent new heads. So the best bang for the buck is GM Vortec head but does require a special intake and lots of EGR work if you need EGR to remain emission legal. These heads are good for a minimum 50hp gain. Another good reasonably priced set of heads that will work nicely without special intakes on a TBI motor is a set of DART 165 iron heads. They flow well and the price isn’t terrible but has increased a lot lately. The DART 180′s also flow well and have a better exhaust flow than many small block heads and so I would keep the cams intake and exhaust duration tighter together. Lots of head options out there now and changes all the time. When chosing heads its important to know the flow data for those heads and not to choose a head with too much intake runner. While a 210cc intake runner head will make good horsepower on a 350 engine its not going to make good low end torque. now with a 400ci SBC that 210cc intake runner will work just fine as you have 50 more cubes to pull air down that runner. On the average 350, I like a intake runner in the 165-180cc range and I like my air flow at .500″ lift to be at least the 225cfm that a vortec head flows. Stock TBI head flows around 175cfm. While .500″ lift numbers don’t cover all the aspects to look for such as lower lift flow numbers and exhaust flow numbers its at least something to help you chose a set of heads. If its a GM head you have google the casting number with FLOW behind it and you may find some flow data for that head.
5. The air cleaner. I recommend a little easier route than I used to. open element filters are fine but you can just put http://www.summitracing.com/parts/knn-ce-1503 and cures nearly all the air flow issues with the air intake. if you have the dual stud lid those studs easily come out of those bolts and you can use http://www.summitracing.com/parts/spe-4215/overview/ as your throttle body has the provision for it.
6. Modify the throttle body. This one pretty cheap but does require removing the throttle body. UTIMATE MODS. Stock 42mm TBI units flow around 450cfm which if you look athttp://www.carburetion.com/calc.asp a stock 350 even with a cam upgrade to increase the powerband to 5500 rpms isn’t going to use much if any more than that stock throttle body. But you can do those ultimate mods since they are free and will give you good air flow up to about 270hp or about anything you can build with the stock TBI heads.
If your going going to build a motor for over 270hp then you need more then the ultimate mods. Have one of these 2 companies bore your stock throttle body out for more air flow. www.rvmorsemachine.com or www.tbiparts.com . I DO NOT recommend the Holley aftermarket TBI unit but have been plagued with bad injectors and base casting issues so I don’t recommend using one. I also don’t recommend a 454 TBI unit as they were designed to idle big block engine and often cause idle and light throttle fuel control issues on SBC so save yourself and me some headaches and get a bored SBC throttle body.
7. Injectors. EVERY BODY wants to change injectors. That’s fine but these injectors are not power adders and only need enough fuel to mix with the amount of air your motor can suck in. All these TBI injectors are over 20 years old and have a lot of wear on them. 454 injectors are the worse for having poor low duty cycle issues causing poor fuel control at idle and light throttle. The odds of getting a GOOD set that will work in a SBC is slim so I have been just cranking fuel pressure up on the 350 injectors on most SBC applications. Those making 350hp or more do have to resort to 454 injectors though.
Instead of using adjustable fuel pressure regulators which has been all the rage in the past. I have tested several springs and had a custom spring 18 psi spring | eBay made that will yield 17-18psi at a much lower cost than buying a regulator and a fuel pressure gauge to set that regulator by. This way you can just slap the spring in and go and its a one time disassembly of the throttle body instead of 3 or 4 times to get the fuel pressure correct. However stock wimpy fuel pump is not going to pump 18psi and your lucky if it will hold 12psi once those injectors spray enough fuel to support a 250hp motor.
Also, a new fuel pump http://motors.search.ebay.com/?from=R40&satitle=ep381+tbi+tpi is VERY important as the stocker is only good for about 250hp and won’t maintain any higher fuel pressure. It can barely keep the fuel pressure maintained for the stock 9-12 psi.
So what size injector or fuel pressure combo to use? Well here is a basic guideline.
Stock 210hp 350 V8 up to 250hp the stock 55lb 350 truck injectors at the factory 11-12psi is fine.
from 250hp to 260hp the fuel pressure should be bumped up to 13-14psi on stock 350 truck injectors which will change their flow rating to 60lb/hr
From 270hp to 340hp you need to change the fuel pump as the stock pump can’t maintain pressure over 270hp and you need to run 18psi on the 350 truck injectors for a flow rate of 72lb/hr
From 340-360hp this is where you should be looking at the 454 injectors and run them at the 13-15psi for their 82lb/hr flow rate. If your closer to the 340hp, you can run them at the stock 9-12psi and still be fine for this power range.
From 360-440hp you need to bump the fuel pressure up on the 454 injectors to the 15-18psi to increase their flow rate to 100lb/hr.
For over 450hp you really should be looking at alternative injection system but for up to 450hp you would need to run nearly 20psi of fuel pressure to increase the lb/hr rating on 454 injectors to 112lb/hr and that is as much pressure as I recommend applying to a set of TBI injectors.
8. The chip. Depending on how many of these modifications you do the more the need for a custom chip or chips. But a chip will give you the most bang for the buck of any mod you can do to the vehicle.
I have put together a custom chip with the 18 psi spring and the 155lph fuel pump to make it easier for you guys to get everything you need at one time to get those fuel systems up to par. custom tbi chip kit | eBay
9. Gears. One of the best ways to get the power to the ground is through gearing. A 3.73-4.10 gear makes a nice streetable rearend gear. Some of the trucks came with 2.73 and some with 3.08. These are terrible gears. I feel that the 3.42 gear is tolerable in a 2wd especially if its pretty stock. check out MOTOR - A Rear Axle Calculator and play with that calculator. I like my trucks to run around 2000-2400 rpms at 70mph in overdrive. Less than 2000 and you don’t have any power in overdrive and it just shifts to 3rd at the least little thing. Over 2400 will make more power but gas mileage will suffer. In that range and the gas mileage will be fine. For speedo calibration for a tire and gear change go to www.tbichips.com/drac for 4L60E,4L80E or 5spd trucks and Speedometer Gear, Speedometer Gears, Ford, GM, Dodge 700R4 for 4L60 700R4 trucks.
10. There is always the supercharger. Check out www.tbi-superchargers.com for some real fun.
11. Torque converter for you automatic lovers. The stock V8 converter stalls at 1400 rpm which is very low. The 95+ S10 4.3L V6 torque converter stalls 2000-2200 rpm. That 600 rpms will help keep your engine in its powerband and thus make it faster. If you go with a cam with over 212 duration @ .050″ (which I don’t really recommend with TBI anyway) then a higher stall would be advised for most street applications. The 2000 stall is a good upgrade that won’t screw up your gas mileage, burn up your trans, break the budget, or be unbearable on the street.
44 guys, I typically don’t recommend the higher stall converter. If you go off roading that extra converter slippage can be a nuisance.
12. Oil pumps, I have decided to add this on the list as TOO many people when building engines put high volume oil pumps in their motors and don’t do this for a few reasons. 1. you would need to run a 7qt oil pan or you will suck the stock pan empty with any spirited use. 2. It takes 20hp to turn a high volume pump at higher rpms over a std volume pump. 3. Unless you prep the block properly you will end up sending too much oil to the hydraulic lifters and pump them up too much causing vacuum issues and poor performance. I use a std volume, high pressure pump http://www.summitracing.com/parts/MEL-M55A/ and its better than stock TBI oil pump and will save us both a LOT of headaches.
14. Never thought I would need to put this on here but just too many issues with these items to ignore. Avoid Bosch o2 sensors, for some reason they cause problems with TBI systems. I haven’t figured out why they work differently yet but until then, I recommend avoiding them. Next is spark plugs, Avoid the fancy plugs like the Platinums and E3 plugs for some reason they don’t work well with TBI either. I haven’t found anything better than a good old AC Delco R44TS or R44LTS depending on which plug length you need for your heads. Most aluminum heads and the vortec heads require the longer LTS plug where the TBI heads and most old iron heads use the shorter TS plugs.
15. I had a customer email me this link asking about it so I thought I had better post it on here. Biggest waste of $900 that I have seen for TBI. Crappy Holley throttle body stuck on a stock edlebrock intake with unmodified 42mm bores in that intake which isn’t going to let near the airflow in that the 52mm Holley TBI has to offer even if the Holley throttle body wasn’t so bad.
Edelbrock 3704K2 JEGS 1987-95 GM Truck TBI Top End Kit - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS

I hope that this info is helpful.
RECOMMENDED CAMS
TBI computer does not do well past 5k rpms so some of the cam choices have been adjusted.
Edelbrock cams
SummitPart Number: EDL-3702 Basic Operating RPM Range: Idle-4,000 Duration at 050 inch Lift: 194 int./214 exh. Advertised Duration: 244 int./264 exh. Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.398 int./0.442 exh. lift Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Summit Part Number: EDL-2102 Basic Operating RPM Range: 1400-4,800 Duration at 050 inch Lift: 204 int./214 exh. Advertised Duration: 278 int./288 exh. Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.420 int./0.442 exh. lift Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Lunati cams
Summit Part Number: LUN-60100LK Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,500-5,000 Duration at 050 inch Lift: 207 int./213 exh. Advertised Duration: 250 int./256 exh. Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.437 int./0.454 exh. lift Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Summit Part Number: LUN-60101LK Basic Operating RPM Range: 1,600-5,300 Duration at 050 inch Lift: 213 int./219 exh. Advertised Duration: 256 int./262 exh. Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio: 0.454 int./0.468 exh. lift Lobe Separation (degrees): 112
Cheapy Sealed Power cams
CS1014R 1500-4800 RPM Range 278 intake/288 exhaust Adv Dur Duration @.050 204 intake/214 exhaust Valve lift 420 intake/443 exhaust, Lobe C/L 112 Strangely this cam has the exact same specs as a Summit 1102 HMM wonder who makes Summits Cams, Also looks exactly like the Edelbrock 2102 cam.
CS1105R 1800-5000 RPM Range 283 intake/286 exhaust Adv Dur Duration @.050 209 intake/216 exhaust Valve Lift .435intake/.455 exhaust Lobe C/L 112

Also Northern Autoparts Northern Auto Parts has the sealed power cams complete with timing chain and gears as well as the cam and lifters as a kit for under $100. Can’t beat that for a budget build.

COMP CAMS I have not edited those pictures yet but the 12-404-4, 12-262-4 and 12-268-4 are no longer recommended because the TBI computer system just seems to fail to make any power above 5000-5200 rpms. So the problems generated below 1500 rpms does not gain you any additional power on the top end from running a larger camshaft.
As you can see below as the duration gets higher so must the lobe separation angle.

Choose one that provides the rpm range that you want your engine to run in. For you 93-95 TBI trucks, I can set the rev limiter to match the redline of those cams and the 4L60E automatics, I can set the shift points to match the powerband of those cams. All 87+ cars got roller cams but the trucks didn’t get one until 1996 (Vortec). The trucks have all the provisions for the roller equipment but just didn’t get the parts.
Part list for converting to roller cam should you want to go that route.
GMPP P/N 12371043 = timing chain/gears and roller cam retaining plate kit (1st and 2nd design plates!) GMPP P/N 12371042 = 2nd design (higher ball preload) roller lifters (16) with (8) lifter aligners and (1) spider hold-down and (3) spider attaching bolts/washers. GMPP P/N 10457356 = Distributor gear for use with roller camshaft.















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  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-27-2014, 03:00 PM
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double post

Last edited by jokerZ71; 08-27-2014 at 03:09 PM. Reason: double post
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Old 08-27-2014, 04:48 PM
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^^^^Sorry for all that.I was only trying to paste the injector sizing section,but,I messed up.I couldn't edit the rest out.
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Old 08-30-2014, 05:23 AM
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. This Harris guy says TBI's don't work well above 5,000 RPMs, but lately everybody seems to be wanting to stuff a 230/230 cam that wants to rev to 6,500-7,000 RPMs in their TBI engines...

. On the other hand, how old is this Harris info?

. Does MagaSquirt control TBI at higher RPMs?

Last edited by BuzzLOL; 08-30-2014 at 05:53 AM.
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Old 08-30-2014, 07:34 AM
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Most ppl wanting to use these don't understand the limitations of TBI,or,the slow outdated ECM that controls them.Cams that will get you into the over 5000 rpm power range cause all kinds of issues for the slow speed density systems.After about 350 HP,it's just easier & more feasible to go to a better engine mgmt & port injection,or go carb.The 93/94/95 truck pcm were a lot better & faster becuz they were needed for the 4L60E,but,they're still not all that.MS2 is a cost effective way to go.You can also get MegaShift from MS to control electronic transmission.
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Old 08-30-2014, 09:53 AM
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For the record,I wasn't recommending Brian Harris in that post.I was trying to post the injector sizing for the OP,but,I messed up.Brian & a lot of the mail order tuners get a bad rep.It's just not a good way to get your tuning.Especially when running big cams/high HP setups.TBI gets a bad rep,but,to put in perspective,the TBI was never designed or intended as a high HP system.The fact that you can modify it easily to fuel over 100 HP than it's original design is pretty good in my opinion.Could you take an old Rochester 1 or 2 bbl carb & do that & still maintain drivabilty?There are guys running big cams & 400 HP on TBI,but,they aren't using a mail order chip & I'm sure most have went thru many many chips to get there.
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