77 Trans Am Panel Fit - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Body - Exterior
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 12:45 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Fitting all the exterior factory panels for a baseline to make sure everything goes together close to how it did. Im looking for any major issues before I commit and weld on my full rocker panels. I have two issues I've been wrestling with and can't remedy. I want some tips. I am shooting for 4mm gaps around the car.

1.) PS door to fender gap- I can't get the panels flush / on the same plane. The door to quarter gap is 4mm at the bottom. It widens out throughout the rest of the gap. I'll have to get the rest perfect with splicing and welding the quarter at final fit with the new quarters. The gap along the door to rocker is about 8mm. This is very similar to my completed factory 70 firebird. If I want this better it'll have to be welded up too. The body line from quarter to door lines up.

Now to the front where the issue is: the gap between the rocker and the fender is 4mm. I think I may actually tighten this particular gap up to 2-2.5mm. The gap between the fender and the front edge of the door is large at about 7-9mm, but again I'll let this up on the rear end of the fender at final fit. I have the body line lined up from door to fender or VERY close. The body line from door to fender is planar. Above the body like the fender sticks out beyond the door by 3-5mm. Below the body line the door sticks out futher than the fender by 3mm. The profile of this door according to a profile I took with a profile gauge is the same as another door I have. The rocker lines and faces are planar. I aligned the rocker first as it is a fixed panel. There is about 9/16" shim at the rear lower fender point and 1/8" at the front lower fender. There is 17/64" shim between the top cowl point and fender. 5/32" shim between the fender and the firewall. Two fenders fit like this. Right now the plan is to cut somewhere below the body line on the fender and fix this with fab work too.

2.) Hood to PS fender alignment- here's what I'm calling a major problem. The hood on the PS sits 10-12mm higher than the top edge of the PS fender. I have elongated the slots in the hood hinge where it mounts to the fenders. I had to clip off the rear edge of the hood mount flange on the hood hinge because when it came down it was sitting on the cowl where the rear hood rest bolt screws in. There was no difference. I don't think the hood hinge is stroked out, so something else has to be contacting the cowl, but I'm not entirely sure what it is yet. There can't be more than a few mm before several other things hit the cowl anyway, so my idea to move the mounting nuts in the fender that the hood hinge bolts in to won't work anyway. Of course I have the bow in the hood that's so common on these cars that makes the hood higher than the fenders about half way down the length of the hood, but this isn't the actual hood I'll be using anyway. I have a new one. For reference; the DS fender and door line up pretty good. A little hammer and dolly work on the top of the door and fender where their complex curves come to me will be fine. There are 1/2" of shims between the cowl and the DS fender, 5/64" between the DS fender and firewall, 34/64" at the rear lower fender mount point, and 6/32" at the front lower fender mount point.


What do I do?!


Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk

    Advertisement

Last edited by Schroeder; 05-27-2019 at 01:06 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 01:07 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Posting pics in 2nd post because as always I was having issues with Tapatalk in the first post and had to post on the site in a web browser.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 01:09 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
1/4" difference in shims on the cowl between DS and PS. Notice the longer slots I added in the hinges where they mount to the fenders. This allowed me to tilt the hood back more, so I could bring the rear down. Of course this brings the front up a little making me further bow the hood.

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 01:11 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Using the PTFB solid body bushings. The installation pictured here is supposed to yield stock heights. I was wondering if I needed the thicker portion of the bushing between the core support and the sub frame, but the DS is fairly close. That gives me more reason to think this isn't the issue. I have included some pics of the hinge in the closed position from inside the engine bay.

I've been fighting with the PS door and fender for a week or. I just started the hood today, and am seriously out of ideas outside of making the under hood structure thinner to make it so lower. This will also require lowering the cowl with fab work too. Been trying to do and learn, but I need some suggestions, insight, or recollections of your experiences with these 2nd gens on this one. Thanks.




Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 02:15 PM
idrivejunk's Avatar
Grand Prix User
 

Last journal entry: Last look
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,972
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,432
Thanked 5,226 Times in 3,080 Posts
Wish I could help, but have not fixed a second gen. Hope you get it nailed down.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 09:48 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Thanks for keeping an eye out. I went to look at this again tonight before bed. I was out there for about 1 hour looking at things. It's like the cowl has to come down to make clearance for the hood hinge. It's really strange. It's not sitting up any higher than the DS. That or the core support has to come up by switching the aluminum PTFB thick and thin bushing halves, and hopefully there is adjustment to make the DS work after that because it is workable right now.

I was thinking about taking the hood hinges out and setting the hood in place supported only at each corner with the rubber-headed stop bolts to see if they reveals anything too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 05-29-2019, 09:20 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Fiddled around with the hood fit more tonight to no avail. Without major modifications to the factory stamped hinges or without moving the hood hinge mount nuts lower on the fenders idk how to make the hood lower. I mounted the aftermarket fesler billet hinges I have and it sure seems like they're designed to have more downward stroke which is exactly what I need. Who knows though until I get the hood on. Both my helpers- dad, who lives next door, and my wife- went in before I had the hinges assembled and mounted. I look forward to mounting the hood up again on these fesler hinges tommorow and finding that I can get th additional 10-12mm downward adjustment I need. I may have to do some custom fab work to make clearance for bolts in the cowl. Hope and pray that tomorrow night works out well!!

Sent from my Pixel 2 XL using Tapatalk
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 05-30-2019, 10:16 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
I was against a wall with the stock hinges, so I got the fesler hinges out. I still had to cut a small flange that's on these fenders off, so I could slide the fesler hinges down all the way in their mount slots to bring the hood down. The DS looks pretty good. The PS is still high by 5mm at the corner, but I gained 7mm! The hood is really tight to the cowl though. The seal is in between the hood and cool,but I have to come down another 5mm.

The rest of the 5mm will require clearancing the cowl, modifying the hood, modifying the fenders, or a combination. I am also wondering if this hood is really just the culprit. It is bowed. As anyone familiar with these cars is aware, there is a large hole punched put of the hood structure just forward of the front hood hinge mounting point. This is a natural place for buckling to occur, and the frames often give and crack at this cut out in the structure. Its a reason why none of these cars' hoods sit flush with the fenders. There is a lot of filler work on it. There are rust holes filled with filler on the bottom side. I do have a new OER hood, but had hoped to not have to get it out right now. It's hard to get at, and I wanna minimize opportunities to damage it.

Here's what I'm thinking now:
1.) I can move on to other things thinking this is close enough. I'll plan on modifying the cowl a little to be able to slide the hood down another 5mm.

2.) I could get the new hood and see if it fits any different. I'm guessing it doesn't, but it's a pure guess.

What would you guys recommend? What are you thinking my issue may be? I don't think I could have one of the full rockers higher than the other and it be causing this. Things seem to be right where they are on my donor car.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 05-31-2019, 09:03 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Couldn't edit the post to add the pics so had to double post.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190530_215655_1559311277023.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	65.6 KB
ID:	443793   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190530_215505_1559311323165.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	58.7 KB
ID:	443795   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190530_214023_1559311335690.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	64.1 KB
ID:	443797   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190530_213456_1559311348442.jpg
Views:	22
Size:	48.1 KB
ID:	443799   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190530_213919_1559311365142.jpg
Views:	21
Size:	60.3 KB
ID:	443801  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190530_201058_1559311381427.jpg
Views:	23
Size:	52.0 KB
ID:	443803  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2019, 05:57 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Hey guys, I'm reaching out one more time. here's my latest results. I cannot get this thing right and I'm very frustrated. This has been going on for a couple weeks now. It's like the profile of the top half of the fender does not match that of the door. when I take a profile gauge to the door and fender to check that though they seem close enough. I remove my door over the weekend and hung another one. it was way worse. It's stuck out far from the car, but it looks like somebody re-skin that door, so that door got pulled right off. However, I have hung the fender from that same donor car and matched it to my current door, and it looked the same against that door. Two fenders are giving me the same results. as mentioned in another post I noticed the same condition I'm seeing to a slightly lesser extent on my completed 70 firebird. It really makes me wonder if there's a bit of an oddity or different from the factory in the passenger side when compared to the driver side fender.

I rehung my door and raised it a little bit because the initial fit that I have posted pictures of over the last week kept seem to be telling me that the body line had to be raised even though the gap between the door skin and the rocker panel was 7 mm. I wanted to gain about 2 to 3 mm to make the body line from the doormat to the fender.

Now the gap between the door and the rocker at the front end is 11 to 12 and 1/2 mm. I can't seem to get the dang thing to lower either, but I know it can do it because I just had it there! The gap at the back of the door is somewhere around 8:00 to 9 mm with the rocker panel. Gaps between the rear of the door and the rocker panel at the Titus points are 4 to 4 and 1/2 mm. I am striving for a 4 mm gap all around the car as I mentioned before, so this is pretty close for this mock-up fit that I'm aiming at.

In the picture shown the body line from fender to door lines up. The faces are playing, except above the body line where it's still is slightly higher than the door skin so if you look down the length of the car from the rear end you can see the spender sticking out by about 1-1.5mm. at the body line the door is slightly further out by about a millimeter than the fender.
The big trade offs with this new fit is at the top edge of the fender is much lower than the top of the door. The Gap between the door panel on the rockers larger. To me these are some big trade-offs that together add up to being wars off and where I was at before.

I think I would have cut the fender long ago and started hacking it to make it fit if it weren't for the fact that I have to separate it from the inner structure to be able to get at the back side of my welds. it's just going to become a major pain, and it's something I'd like to avoid if possible.

on a side note, is it possible to get these things any closer to the rocker panels and still have the body lines lineup? My 70 has 7 mm gabs between the bottom edge of the door skin and the rocker panel is well. How do you address this? Am I going to have to weld a TIG filler rod to the bottom edge of the door or something like that? I'm reskining the doors, so I guess I could cut an inch up from the bottom flange and add the material there.

these are all wrong posts, but I'm trying to give as much information as I can so somebody can help me rather than fishing information from me over the course of 10 posts and 5 days. I'd really appreciate some help if anybody's out there. if I'm still on this position with no new information by the time the weekend rolls around I think I'm going to set The door a little lower to where it was to have about a 7 mm gap with the rocker panel(if I can figure out how to!), Fit defender back to how it was, and plan to add material to the bottom of the door to close the gap with the rocker panel to 4 mm and also plan to have to do some custom metal work to get the fender perfect to how I want it out final fit.

Where is the fellow who did up the nice gunmetal colored 73 firebird? I'll have to look up your name in my PMs and past threads. if you're out there and have any information it would truly be appreciated!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_220144_1559644601908.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	28.4 KB
ID:	443901   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_220117_1559644627065.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	41.4 KB
ID:	443903   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_220109_1559644660253.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	52.9 KB
ID:	443905   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_220102_1559644693859.jpg
Views:	18
Size:	31.6 KB
ID:	443907   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_220050_1559644707047.jpg
Views:	17
Size:	34.9 KB
ID:	443909  

Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_220037_1559644732123.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	29.1 KB
ID:	443911   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_215926_1559644758989.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	38.4 KB
ID:	443913   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_215921_1559644788898.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	36.0 KB
ID:	443915   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_20190603_215909_1559644825672.jpg
Views:	16
Size:	40.8 KB
ID:	443917  
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2019, 06:46 AM
idrivejunk's Avatar
Grand Prix User
 

Last journal entry: Last look
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: USA
Posts: 3,972
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,432
Thanked 5,226 Times in 3,080 Posts
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/brut...percars-alive/

Nobody knows where to find Keith, even his family. You don't proofread posts, nor do you accept advice. You just do your own thing no matter what guidance is offered. Eventually everyone realized you have bitten off more than you can chew, and that you shot yourself in the foot early on with this project. My willingness to attempt to assist also ran dry eventually. Its a waste of time. You have made your bed, now lay in it. Theres no further need to stay polite on your end or ours.

Matt
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 06-04-2019, 06:54 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2016
Posts: 317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 18
Thanked 9 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by idrivejunk View Post
https://www.hotrod.com/articles/brut...percars-alive/

Nobody knows where to find Keith, even his family. You don't proofread posts, nor do you accept advice. You just do your own thing no matter what guidance is offered. Eventually everyone realized you have bitten off more than you can chew, and that you shot yourself in the foot early on with this project. My willingness to attempt to assist also ran dry eventually. Its a waste of time. You have made your bed, now lay in it. Theres no further need to stay polite on your end or ours.

Matt
Was in the process of editing the post, but I'm at work. There must be a timeout period because now it won't allow me to edit.

What advice have I been given or not taken with panel fit? In fact, I am taking your advice in this very exercise. You guys said don't weld anything on because I have gotten pretty deep in the car. You said screw everything together so i can move it and fit everything up. I have screwed everything together and am doing fit before wedding anything, so I can make corrections if needed. That's where I'm at. I'm doing what guys on this forum have recommended.

I have not posed any bolt-on-panel fit questions until this thread.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Body - Exterior posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 08:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.