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Old 03-19-2015, 12:18 PM
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Any Chromabase experts here

I had my car painted (The shop owner is a friend) and they used Chromabase. After the car was painted it looked very good except for a few issues (dirt and small runs in the clear). On the inside of 2 of the doors, an area about 2"x 2" where the painter had put some green tape to hold the door closed, the black paint came off right down to the primer.

When I stopped by to see the car, I was surprised to see that they had scuffed the entire car for re-clear??? The painter told me that they just wanted to get a good, smooth coat of clear on the car. I'm not going to complain about another coat of clear. last week I get a call that the entire car needed to be stripped back down because ALL of the paint was pealing off!

I stopped by the shop today and the painter says the the Dupont rep asked if he used activator. He said no, he hadn't used it for years. Rep says that is probably the problem.

SO--here is my issue; I made all the body mods, and a seasoned body man, with 50 years experience, did the body work and shot the body with 5 STAR XTREME 5425 High Build 2K DTM Primer/filler. The car sat in my shop, while I worked on it, for about a year before going to paint.

Both the painter, and owner, said, almost in passing, that there might have been an issue with the primer my guy put down. Maybe he didn't activate it etc. I'm sure that he did, but I don't want them using that for an excuse not to pick up the expense of repaint.

Any thoughts from you guys is appreciated.
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Old 03-19-2015, 04:23 PM
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If the paint that is peeling off is right down to bare metal then the paint should not be the issue, it would be a primer/ bodywork prep problem. If the paint is peeling off down to the primer, then the problem would be the paint not sticking to the primer. Chromabase uses an activated reducer, so not sure what is going on there.
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Old 03-19-2015, 06:19 PM
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I've sprayed a lot of Chromabase material, and we have NEVER activated the basecoat. Never have had any adhesion problems either. Everything has always been sealed with Valueshade Sealers (activated) before the application of basecoat. It's my understanding that Chromabase CAN be activated (making it Chroma Premier), but to my knowledge, if the Chromabase is peeling off the primer, then there was either contamination that did not get cleaned off properly, or possible application issues, i.e., improper flash times, etc. IMHO, I'm leaning with flash time/application error.
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Old 03-19-2015, 06:57 PM
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Business with a friend or family member is always dangerous.. IMHO.. I'm sure if he is a 'real' friend he will fix the issue free of charge and learn not to do friends favors..
LOL I'm somewhat kidding.. I always help out friends!
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Old 03-19-2015, 08:43 PM
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Seems to me they didn't prepwipe and sand the primer to rekey it for adhesion. If you car sat in primer for awhile it could have got contaminated or rubbed smooth... that would account for a base adhesion issue.


I have shot Chomabase (pricey) but great paint especially for metalics, and never activated it. I was told it only needed to be activated for warranty claims.
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Old 03-20-2015, 05:52 AM
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Tanks for the replie. What is the recomended flash for 2k primer? Can you let it sit TOO long before spraying top coat?

The paint on my car is coming off in sheets whe scraped with a razor.

my car was shot with DTM 2K primer about 15 months befor going to the paint shop.

They shot it again with sealer/primer and blocked it.

Should that primer/seale, that they shot, be enough to seal the previous primer?

In other words, would the first primer coat shot on the car, cause problems after 2 or 3 new coats of primer sealer were sprayed?

The paint is pealling off down to THEIR primer coat.

Thanks
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Old 03-20-2015, 09:14 AM
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If the Chromabase is peeling off in sheets, down to the primer, that means there was NO adhesion of the basecoat to the primer. Some 2k primers, after being sanded, need to be coated within a certain time window (varies w/mfg.) or they will sort of "reseal" (ever notice that when you sand cured 2k primer, it starts to smell strongly? That's because it's being "opened up" by the sand paper. After a while, the smell goes away. Sand it again, and the smell is there.) and not have the "tooth" needed for good adhesion.

I don't recall you mentioning the painter using a sealer ( a good coat of sealer can aid in adhesion and color holdout) before spraying the basecoat. Also, the type of basecoat reducer (brand & temp/range). Depending on the room temperature, air flow over the vehicle, and the reducer used, the flash times can vary a lot. If the finish is peeling up, and the bottom of the piece that peeled is still the basecoat color (no primer, no sealer), you either have a bad basecoat product (improper flash off, wrong reducer, etc.), or the existing surface (in your case, 2k primer) was not allowing the color to "bite in" and adhere properly. If the clearcoat (which was most likely activated) was sprayed too soon after the last coat of basecoat. could the clear have trapped solvents (by chemically curing on top of the basecoat, which may not have fully flashed off)?
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Old 03-20-2015, 09:24 AM
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paint

too bad DuPont sold off that part of the company.. all u needed to do is call wilm de corp headquarters for info..
chroma paint is pricey ??
Oh wait i forgot... i worked for dupont R&D paints in phila for 10 yrs. got Alllllll my paint stuff free...
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Old 03-20-2015, 11:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Trophyman View Post
Tanks for the replie. What is the recomended flash for 2k primer? Can you let it sit TOO long before spraying top coat?

The paint on my car is coming off in sheets whe scraped with a razor.

my car was shot with DTM 2K primer about 15 months befor going to the paint shop.

They shot it again with sealer/primer and blocked it.

Should that primer/seale, that they shot, be enough to seal the previous primer?

In other words, would the first primer coat shot on the car, cause problems after 2 or 3 new coats of primer sealer were sprayed?

The paint is pealling off down to THEIR primer coat.

Thanks
That says it all, the paint is peeling off THEIR primer, that is all there is to it, the previous primer has nothing to do with it.

The primer they applied either was applied way too heavy, a number of other things that caused trapped solvent, or it wasn't sanded properly or something. The paint isn't sticking to that primer for some reason, the activation of the base has nothing to do with it.

The bond between the paint and primer isn't there. This can only be caused by solvent entrapment in the either in the primer or the paint, where the solvent forms a barrier between the two. Or as mentioned the primer could have had a "window" that was passed after sanding and before painting. As said, the top will "glaze" over sealing it, they will actually "smooth out" with the sand scratches smoothing out! Not many will do this but some will and there is usually clear instructions within the tech sheet explaining this. There was a primer I worked with for years that had this, if it is wet sanded it's window is only 1.5 hours! So if you wet sanded the car before painting it, even if it was the same day it would need to be washed and scuffed!

http://www.martinsenour-autopaint.co...s/pds/8205.pdf

And believe me, this stuff was HARD and if you ignored this and wet sanded it and painted it the next day or two, you were likely in for trouble. Not only that but if you then aligned the planets and applied the paint too wet you then have a bunch of solvent that can get trapped in the film helping it even more to come off that too smooth and hard primer!

Unfortunately your friend has a re-do to do. Maybe you can help him, maybe you can help pay for his worker to do it, or something being I assume he was giving you a good deal.

Brian
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Old 03-20-2015, 09:33 PM
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Brian is 100% correct. The shop made a mistake in either application or material choses . They should make it right. but like he said if the shop owner is a friend ,then he probably gave you a good deal so be a stand up friend and help him absorb the repaint cost. Not only with material cost but grunt labor. I have been painting cars for 40 plus years and all I can say is " stuff" happens. And I know what its like to give a "friend " a great deal and have something like this happen and not actually be my fault. But I have not met a paint rep yet not tell me it was application error! some will offer to replace product but that is not ****! Compared to the labor cost involved in redoing it!!! Best of luck and treat your friend right Larry
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Old 03-21-2015, 06:26 AM
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Brian is 100% correct. The shop made a mistake in either application or material choses . They should make it right. but like he said if the shop owner is a friend ,then he probably gave you a good deal so be a stand up friend and help him absorb the repaint cost. Not only with material cost but grunt labor. I have been painting cars for 40 plus years and all I can say is " stuff" happens. And I know what its like to give a "friend " a great deal and have something like this happen and not actually be my fault. But I have not met a paint rep yet not tell me it was application error! some will offer to replace product but that is not ****! Compared to the labor cost involved in redoing it!!! Best of luck and treat your friend right Larry
Very well said, and 110% ACCURATE !!!
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Old 03-21-2015, 07:51 AM
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I totally agree with our resident expert, Brian Martin. Even a great primer such as SPI epoxy has a recoat window (24 hours +/- depending on the weather) or you rescuff with at least 280/320 (I use 600). Chromabase is like any other good automotive paint and it has a tech sheet developed by their tech staff. Follow it and you wont go wrong. This applies to any manufacturer's primers used as well. As far as deviating, you can have major problems. "Helping" the painter out - I don't pay for his mistakes, especially if as noted, the painter has been doing this for 50 years (and he's still breathing?). I might consider some grunt labor, but even the Chroma black ain't cheap, and color lots more.

Dang, people who think they know more then a product manufacturer ..........

Dave W
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Old 03-21-2015, 08:16 AM
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Very well said, and 110% ACCURATE !!!
OK, I got a discount on the labor rate. Still, all in all, this job cost me in excess of 10 grand.

Now, before the car went to paint, I had a 50+ year body/paint guy massage the body and parts. I did the body mods and he made them look seamless. He had (passed on now) a stellar rep for thoroughness and was anal when it came to quality. He worked 6 months 3-5 hrs. 3 days a week and I paid him weekly. He was 70 yo but worked like a yougun. He was going to paint the car as well, but.......

The car was 95% ready when I sent it to paint. I made a few minor mods that needed attention at the paint shop but, essentially, the car was arrow straight and smooth.

SO--not sure what happened here, but I think I've paid enough for a paint job.

I've asked the questions here, so I can get a better understanding of what MIGHT have happened. The guy painting the car has about 18 years experience.
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Old 03-21-2015, 08:33 AM
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So...another question I have is this.

The picture here is of the side where he painted the "red stripe" in the body line. He painted that red first, then masked etc. When he was scraping the champagne color off, the red paint was not scraping off?? Thoughts

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Old 03-21-2015, 08:49 AM
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OK, I got a discount on the labor rate. Still, all in all, this job cost me in excess of 10 grand.

Now, before the car went to paint, I had a 50+ year body/paint guy massage the body and parts. I did the body mods and he made them look seamless. He had (passed on now) a stellar rep for thoroughness and was anal when it came to quality. He worked 6 months 3-5 hrs. 3 days a week and I paid him weekly. He was 70 yo but worked like a yougun. He was going to paint the car as well, but.......

The car was 95% ready when I sent it to paint. I made a few minor mods that needed attention at the paint shop but, essentially, the car was arrow straight and smooth.

SO--not sure what happened here, but I think I've paid enough for a paint job.

I've asked the questions here, so I can get a better understanding of what MIGHT have happened. The guy painting the car has about 18 years experience.
If your "friehd" charged you 10 grand to do final prep, seal and paint . I take back my remark about being a stand up guy. Don't get me wrong my paint jobs can run 10-15,000 depending on overall body condition and additional art work {flames,two tones ect.} But that's starting with a bare metal body in good condition. 4 to 500 man hours burns up pretty fast when you have 2 or 3 guys working on a show quality paint job! But that said you did pay plenty for a top quality paint job ! So in that case I agree it is up to your painter and his material rep to make this right. Larry
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