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Old 05-04-2014, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by mr4speed View Post
When ever I have a color mixed at my jobber (who I have been dealing with for almost 10 years) I always make sure before I leave or it is paid for that it does match what I have. The one time I did not check it until I got home, it was way off. I brought it back to him and he did what he had to to make it right, which by the way turned out to be a real nightmare of a color that he had a LOT of trouble to get right. But he did it and he ate the extra cost of the paint. It just comes down to taking care of a good customer, that in turn will bring you more sales down the road. Unfortunatly your jobber just does not want to take the time to make it right after the fact and wants you to eat it instead of him. For what ever reason he chose to go this route, you are now stuck with a bad color. Regardless of the brand, anyone who really knows how to mix tints and is real good should be able to salvage what you have. It is a matter of trying to get another jobber that carries that line of paint and is willing to help you out, which I think will be tough to do.
ALWAYS check the match first before paying, even Nason will match if the the guy knows what he's doing because he CAN use better toners if he wants too and if you wont pay for the paint ....He'll want too....I used Nason all the time and always got a good match because I NEVER paid until it matched (blendable) ....BUT why do you need so much paint when a pint of base and a Qt of clear is all it takes ???? You got Robbed that's for sure...You ALWAYS should know what exactly what you want BEFORE you go in a paint store ,asking them for advice will always cost you dearly...I've heard so much BS coming out of their mouths while waiting for my paint to be mixed it crazy.I just want to pull the customer aside and say something

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Old 05-04-2014, 09:45 AM
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What do you mean he "can use better toners"? Are you referring to grabbing toners off the Imron mixing bank to make the color?

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Old 05-04-2014, 09:56 AM
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Originally Posted by HotRodMan View Post
I brought a half a quart of brilliant canary yellow single stage paint in the old Dupont Imron brand into the paint jobber's store and asked if they could match it. They said they could match it in Nason brand as the Imron was no longer available. They mixed it up and I took it home. I put some of the old paint and some of the new paint on a primed trim panel to check the color and it did not match. The new paint was not the clean yellow I had. It had a slight orange tint to it and it was a little darker. I tried to stir the paint and scrape the bottom of the can for a full 5 minutes and that did not help either. Let the paint dry over night.

I called the jobber and asked it they would try to correct the problem and they told me no, that there was no guarantee the paint would match and they were not allowed to add color tint to the mix once the paint had been mixed. They offered 1 1/4oz of bright yellow tint which I put into the paint but it did not help at all. The Nason paint with the catalyst, reducer, and tax was about $372.00. They said they had a Dupont brand they would guarantee the color match on for $1400.00 a gallon.

I have been doing business with this jobber for years and never had this problem come up before. It looks like I am going to be stuck with $372.00 worth of paint I can't use. They implied from the beginning the paint would be matched and then when it didn't happen they gave me the story about different tints and brands like they did not expect it to match to begin with.

Very disappointed and unhappy. I have 400 hours of prep time in this car and I sure do not want to paint it with a color I am not happy with.

Anyone else have this problem? What did you do?
I was focused only on the color match issue, the prices you mention sound just crazy nuts.

Let's get this straight, you only need a pint of color right? You are painting your quarter panel, is that right?

Am I correct in that being they say they can't match the color their "solution" is to buy a gallon and the gallon of Nason is "372 and a gallon of the high end stuff is $1400, is that what they are saying?

You plan on "Panel painting" that quarter without a blend into the door?


First off, let's get back to spraying it over the "primered trim panel". How do you know if you got complete coverage over that primer? Yellow can often be very transparent, if that primered panel wasn't completely covered you could have quite a different look than if it was. What color is the primer?

But let's clarify, do you plan on shooting that quarter and not blending into the door, because that is asking a LOT of that color match.

Brian
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Old 05-04-2014, 10:26 AM
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They'll never get an exact match ...you cant paint it without blending it ,it'll never match.......so,first off they sold you the wrong paint, what you need is BC/CC (ful-base) ...Of coarse you CAN blend a SS but it takes a time to learn and also needs to be cleared. bottom line is. you bought the paint your stuck with it....so you need to buy a pint of base ,Try Omini Plus (not regular Omini)...from your PPG guy and make sure it matches before you lay any money down.
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Old 05-04-2014, 10:32 AM
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are you sure they sold him SS? If so, that's a terrible road they sent him down by assuring him it would match. Who and the hell would set someone up to blend single stage?
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Old 05-04-2014, 10:44 AM
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You CAN blend SS but you still have to clear the over blend, its just not usually worth the Xtra time and effort when you get a base and be done with it...
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Old 05-04-2014, 12:04 PM
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New info on mismatch paint

There is some new information concerning the situation but first I would like to explain I am painting the whole car not just the quarter panel. The quarter panel had been wrecked but there were imperfections all over the car so I decided to do a complete paint job. The reason I asked for a match is that I liked that color so much I wanted to use that same color again. It was a pure bright yellow that was mixed in 2006 and yes it had lead in it.

I went to the jobbers web site and found the E mail of the president of the company. I explained the problem to him and he said he no longer worked for the company but he would meet me at the jobbers in two weeks to try and solve the problem. ( He was out of town this week) So at least this is a start. They refused to even take a look at it or make an attempt to make it more yellow before. Some of the members here indicate the tint that Nason has is not capable of making it more yellow and that may be true but they would not even look at it. Its only one shade off and I thought if more yellow were added that would fix the problem.

After this experience I think I would have been better off not to try and match what I have but to look thru their color charts find a pure bright yellow and have them mix that. I guess you still run the risk of that not matching but the risk would be less.

On a personal note I have been selling house paint for 40 years and on any occasion that there was a mismatch or the color looked different than the chip I always bent over backwards to make the customer happy and with my experience I could correct the problem 99% of the time by adding more tint. A few times I just had to mix a whole new gallon of paint. I even corrected color problems from paint that was bought at other retailers at no charge, and gained a new customer for life. I don't think the paint store I worked for would be in business long if they refused to do anything about it at all.
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Old 05-04-2014, 03:27 PM
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I just want to make it clear, I never said that Nason wasn't capable of matching this color, or making it more yellow. I simply said that there is a POSSIBILITY that you can't make as clean a color as with other brands or lines. If it's too dark and muddy now to change it may take mixing it again leaving out some dark toner may be all that's needed. But that is all I was saying, that often the cheaper lines like Nason are limited in colors that they can make.

Brian
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Old 05-04-2014, 06:15 PM
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I am best described as a "hobbyest". A long, long way from a professional.

I wanted a close match to a 1970 Datsun air cleaner lid. I took it to my local, easy to work with paint store, and talked to them. I had decided on Dupont Centari.
We started with a paint chip book. Found a color that was close, 1968-1969 VW chrome blue. The paint store looked it up, and told me, we have formulas for a pint, if you like. They mixed it up, I shot it, and took the part back to the store. They took the original part, the part I sprayed, and the paint they mixed, and said we will call tomorrow.

The next day, I got a call, your paint is ready. The old air cleanr lid had seven or eight spots of paint, progressing from the initial attempt to pretty much a perfect match, both in the store, under flourescent lighting, and outside in sunlight, and shade. The last spot of paint you could not tell by the color, just by the higher edge of the thickness of the paint. Although I wear glasses, and I have poor depth perception, when I get an eye exam, I can pretty much read the numbers in the color blindness book as fast as you can turn the pages. I even see some numbers I am not suposed to.

My point, I paid less than $30.00 for that pint of matched paint. With the time involved in mixing, tinting, or shading the paint several times, I am sure the paint store lost money on me, with that paint.

I think you need a new paint store. Did I mention that the paint store still gives me a discount, because I used to be a student at the local community college, in the auto body program?
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Old 05-04-2014, 08:34 PM
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How do the pros blend new paint into old?

I am sure a professional body man is faced with a situation where the insurance company is only going to pay for paint on a small damaged area on a car as apposed to painting the whole car.

I am just wondering how the professionals match paint and paint just a section of the car without noticing where the new and the old paint meet.

Even if you have the paint code chances are the paint on the car had faded so if they mix the paint up according to the paint code for the car, that is still not going to match.

How are you professionals handling that situation?
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Old 05-04-2014, 09:50 PM
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What happens in that case is called a "blend" into the nearest panel. For instance painting a door you would blend into the fender and rear quarter, so not to see a hard line where the door ends and fender begins. At any rate the color would still need to be in the ball park match wise, depending on the color if it was way off you would still be able to notice a color difference at some point. I did a crew cab chevy pick up a while back that was hit in the bed and a slight part of the rear door, the color was a dark green. I painted the whole quarter and blended half way into the rear door, the color was a bit darker than the original. But even in the direct sun light it looked like the whole side was the same color, even though it really was not. And it also saved on painting the entire side of the truck.

Last edited by mr4speed; 05-04-2014 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodMan View Post
I am sure a professional body man is faced with a situation where the insurance company is only going to pay for paint on a small damaged area on a car as apposed to painting the whole car.

I am just wondering how the professionals match paint and paint just a section of the car without noticing where the new and the old paint meet.

Even if you have the paint code chances are the paint on the car had faded so if they mix the paint up according to the paint code for the car, that is still not going to match.

How are you professionals handling that situation?
Below is a "Basics" I wrote up a few years ago. The photos are gone darn it but you can imagine a few colors on a chip that are a little different to a LOT different from one an other.

This is on picking out "alternates" and not about "Matching" which is a whole different animal. To match the color you use colors from your mixing bank (there are 12-50 colors in the average mixing bank) you need the color more red, you add some red to it, basically. You often add colors that "kill" other colors you don't want too, it gets very complicated and takes a lot to learn color tinting as your average painter in a shop does. Unfortunately with all the alternates available to the painter this color matching skill is fading away. The painter simply grabs an alternate that is close and sprays it. Back years ago there were no alternates and EVERY color got tinted to match, those days are gone and the skills to do it are fading away.

Here is a color chip selection that most shops have, all those little holders have many alternates of the same color!





This bumper mismatch is a good example, both these colors are very likely the same "code". That is how different these "alternates" can be, and even further off than this is common. They aren't even "blendable", it would look like a custom fade job.



Anyway, here are the basics.

“Basics of Basics” Color matching, Alternates
By Brian Martin


This “Basics” not only pertains to matching the color to paint a fender on a late model car, but also to know whether that “perfect” color for your street rod you saw on a car at the new car dealership IS actually the color you are buying at the store.

The very first step at matching a color is checking to see if there are any “alternate” or “Variant” formulas available for the color. They are called different names by different manufacturers, I will stick to the one I have used the most, “alternates”.

These “alternates” happen for a number of reasons. Basically, they are different “batches” of colors used by the manufacturer. This could happen because cars are painted at different plants around the country (or world as some models are made here as well as in Asia or Europe), or even at the same plant when they empty one barrel of paint and start on a new one.

The point is, a paint code on the cars information label doesn’t ensure that is actually the color. That paint code could have MANY different alternates! And sometimes they are MILES apart in appearance. There is usually no way to know if there are alternate formulas without looking up the color in the computer or micro fiche (are there still people using micro fiche??). There may or may not be an alternate formula available that matches. Value line paints for instance won’t usually have alternates at all. The color dept of the paint manufacturer is a costly dept, they spend millions of dollars (the big boys do at least) on color formulation. That IS their bread and butter I the collision industry, COLOR. Some companies (DuPont for instance) use a system where you can give them the VIN off the car and the computer will tell them what alternate was used on that car! I haven’t used this system to know how good it works, but pretty interesting. The alternates are usually a much closer representation of the actual color you will get as well. The color examples in a color chip book are usually “ink” and not paint at all! So the colors are “representations” but not “actual” matches. Alternate chips are usually paint and MUCH closer to what the actual paint you buy will look like. Always ask if there are alternate formulas available for the color you are using.

If there are a lot of alternates, it is not the paint companies fault. In fact, it only means they care a lot that the color matches and the more they have is more of an indication of how good the company is more than how bad they are. They put a higher importance (read that MONEY) on assuring a good color match with their paint. PPG for instance has a very good color “variant” system, but that is with the high end products like DBC, DBU and Global. But with OMNI (or Shopboy or what ever they are calling it now) their value line, they have none. OMNI and other cheap value lines may be good products and save you some money. But they are not for good color matches, they are for “overall refinishing only”. If they call a color “Guards red” (a popular Porsche red used for years in the rodding circle) that DOESN’T mean it is going to look like the Guards red you will find in DuPonts top of the line ChromaPremere. Or for that fact, there may be a few alternates in the ChromaPremere!

If you do paint your car with one of these “off brands” (not a big boy) they are fine for future painting. If you buy a quart of paint from the same people you bought a gallon from a year ago it “should” match the gallon that was sprayed on your car. Just don’t expect a quart bought today to match the paint that is on the car from the factory.

So, I have taken a few photos of some alternates to show you just how different they can be. These are pretty old, but you get the point. Some colors may have only one alternate while others will have six, seven or even ten or more! And these are not all the alternates used on the cars at the factory. They are only the ones that the paint company thought were worth their color matching time (read that MONEY) to provide a formula. When I was with Sherwin-Williams the head of the color lab told me that the worse they had was a Ford color with 89 different samples! We are talking 89 different examples of the same make model year and color code!!! And people wonder why colors are hard to match! Of these 89 examples there were so many different examples all over the board of lighter, darker, redder, bluer, muddier, cleaner, etc. than the standard formula that they couldn’t even categorize them! They may have had ten or so alternate formulas with this color, even though there were 89 examples! If you are wondering how they get these samples, they were sent in by paint reps usually. We had a sticker we would right all the info on the car in and then stick it to a piece of actual car that was cut off a panel being discarded. This info included make, model, year, VIN, paint code, date of manufacture, location of manufacture, etc. And then the sample would be sent into the color lab in Chicago.

In the photo the colors represented in number 1 being GM code 49 light sanddrift metallic (there is a close up photo of that one) #2 being GM code 24 opel blue metallic, #3 GM code 81 bright red, #4 Ford code B2 Chrome Yellow, # 5 is Ford Code RD teal metallic and the last, number 6 is Chrysler code PS7 dark silver metallic.

You can see that there are some BIG differences in these colors! The first example on them is the “standard” then alternate #1, #2, etc. Can you imagine if you had a car painted alt #4 and you go and buy the paint and get the “standard” color? Your new paint is NOT going to match, that is for sure.

How about on your Hot rod Duece Roadster, you see your neighbors new Chevy pickup is this awesome Bright red color and the code on the identification sticker in the door jamb says code 81, that’s all you need right? You go and buy a gallon of DBU for about $500 and spray your car. But your neighbors truck is alternate #2 and your paint store mixed you alt #3, your car wouldn’t even look close to that truck!

Two lessons here, ALWAYS buy a small amount of the color you want and spray it out to check if it is indeed what you want. ALWAYS ask the guy mixing the paint if there are alternates so you are fully informed. Ask to see the alternate chips, take them out in the sun and take a look at them, be informed as to what you are buying.
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Old 05-05-2014, 08:22 AM
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apart from color there's the gloss factor. Sometimes the existing clear has just oxidized to the point where you won't get a good match unless you flatten the clear a bit. At the current shop I work at the boss just tells them it's the old clear if they complain, at a couple other shops I used to work at the painter would actually flatten the new clear to match the old clear. You can also put a buffer on the old clear to bring back some shine before blending. I have never flattened clear for that but have buffed old panels to bring it back
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:39 AM
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apart from color there's the gloss factor. Sometimes the existing clear has just oxidized to the point where you won't get a good match unless you flatten the clear a bit. At the current shop I work at the boss just tells them it's the old clear if they complain, at a couple other shops I used to work at the painter would actually flatten the new clear to match the old clear. You can also put a buffer on the old clear to bring back some shine before blending. I have never flattened clear for that but have buffed old panels to bring it back

I have always had a passion for this stuff I have had fun even with the collision work because of this passion. I want that car to look like it's never been touched and it adds some fun to the work. I don't expect anyone to see what I have done, I do it for me. That being said, I am a bit of a mental case with this subject. I once put a fender on a Nissan 280ZX and the car had been repainted with a SS silver and was faded REAL bad. The top of the car was chalk while all the way down at the rockers it was shiny. I painted the fender only without any blends (what good would it have been?) and matched it so close it was crazy! LOL, I painted the fender, then added flattener to it and sprayed the side but not going all the way to the rocker so it would remain shiny down there, then kept adding more and more flattener with every pass of the gun until I got to the top which was VERY flat. I did a fade-fade! It looked pretty damn close!

Here are a few examples to those who haven't seen an "alternate deck", I took a bunch of photos so you could get a good idea being I am not that great at taking photos and it's often hard to capture stuff like this. But this is an example of "mixing the paint code", all of these samples are the same code! These are all Nissan code KYO from a late model Nissan/Infiniti. Notice that these are not all the same color, but they ARE the same code, how can that be you ask? Well, as explained earlier there are many factors, different batches, different paint suppliers even, for what ever reason there are 8 different colors with the same code. And these are only the ones the paint company decided to do, there are MANY more, these are likely the most common. When I worked for SW chatting with the head of the color matching department she told me they had a Ford color that they had 87 different colors samples! They didn't make 87 alternate formulas, that would be nuts, but that is what they have to work with, they probably had 10 different formulas though. And some paint companies you literally enter the cars VIN to get the proper alternate formula!

Brian









Notice that some of these colors wouldn't be a "blendable match".

The NASON formula was most likely a computer converted formula and to have it anywhere in this range of samples I give would be normal.

Brian
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Old 05-05-2014, 10:49 AM
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I thought I should have shown a yellow as an example so I went and got a shot of some yellows. Check this one out! The three on the right are a BMW color and YES those are all the same paint code! The four on the left are Toyota, yes those are all one paint code!

So if you went to the store for your BMW and asked for a quart of that paint code you could get any one of those three if the guy didn't explain how different they are to you.

How would a fender shot in the middle one look on a car the one on the right? YEOW, that would be beautiful huh?

This doesn't have a whole lot to do with your NASON problem of course, because there is no way they would have spent the time on alternates, it costs too much to do this. So the value line will have a note "overall refinishing only" as far as color goes, it is "close" and they will be right up front about that at the factory level. What a counter guy at a paint store tells you may be different. But at the factory level, it's for "overall refinishing only".

Brian



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