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Old 02-06-2020, 09:36 AM
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Cooling Capacity

Putting a 351W (about 400 hp) in a '67 Fairlane that was originally a 289 car. I need a radiator and was wondering if the stock size radiator will be sufficient. Fairlanes for that year with the 390 had a larger radiator. Iv'e thought about going to that size but I know there needs to be modifications to make it fit. Does anyone know what that involves.

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Old 02-06-2020, 09:38 AM
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if you have the room bigger or more cooling capacity is always better
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:21 AM
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Buddy on mine put a 450 hp 351W in his '67 Fairlane...a fresh re-cored Air conditioning spec(3 row or 4 row core, I don't remember) 289 radiator would NOT keep it cool.
This was the top/bottom tank, vertical flow stock style. Had no problem with it cooling a 300 Hp or so 302, but it would not keep the higher HP 351W cool, even with an aluminum water pump. Problem is the vertical flow radiators are just too narrow, not big enough volume.


He went to an aftermarket cross flow, one of the common generic hotrod/circle track aluminum radiators with Ford location inlet outlet and built new mounts for it. Stays rock solid cool now. This was 10 years or so ago.

I believe there are vertical flow aluminum HP replacements available now, maybe even bolt-in fit, but they won't be any where near as inexpensive as the circle track type, due to supply/demand.
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Old 02-06-2020, 08:42 PM
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One of the first things I learned as a youngster doing engine swaps was that I should use the largest radiator that I could fit into the car. "Fit" includes cutting into the core support and enlarging the capability of the support for a larger radiator. Nothing is sacred in engine swaps. Crank up the cutting torch. While you're at it, move the radiator out to the front of the car as far as you need to in order to attach an 18", 7-blade steel fan and viscous drive assembly with tight-fitting shroud. Position the shroud so that the fan blades are halfway into the shroud opening and halfway out of the shroud opening. For the love of Mike. steer away from one of those Fosdick electric fans.

This would be my choice for radiator...….
https://www.radiatorexpress.com/prod...221012/1435852
Some of the Ford speed outlets may have an original or re-pop core support that would just bolt in.
.

Last edited by techinspector1; 02-06-2020 at 08:55 PM.
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Old 02-06-2020, 10:49 PM
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Wow, Tech...that price is a real surprise for me, but then I hadn't looked for anything direct fit like that in a long time....used to be in the $500-700 range 10 years ago.

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Old 02-07-2020, 06:59 AM
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Thanks Tech,

The electric fans seem to be on everything today. What is it that fuels your dislike for them?
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Old 02-07-2020, 09:55 AM
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Electric fans can be fine, but they don't do the same job at a belt fan. Electric fans are on everything these days because of fuel efficiency. A belt fan is always on sucking fuel even when it's not needed. OEMs have millions of dollars to spend on R&D to make sure their electric fan does the job in all situations. You can't duplicate that with a $150 guess from Jegs.

Belt fans suck a fair amount of power, but they move gargantuan amounts of air. They don't move quite as much as an electric can at idle, but here is the more important thing when going electric.

You need to make sure you have enough flow THROUGH the fan, not when it's running, not how much flow the fan can generate, but how much flow can get past things. A poorly chosen electric fan might move a ton of air at idle and more than enough to keep things cool at low load, but then on the highway it might block too much air, even when it's running.

Think of it this way; let's say a belt fan will move a maximum of (all numbers are examples) 3000 cfm, but on the highway it will allow 6000 cfm to passively blow through it. An electric fan might also draw 3000 cfm, but depending on how it's designed might only allow 4000 on the highway. You have to make sure you're not shooting yourself in the foot. Comparing CFMs of electric vs belt is like comparing wattage of incandescent lights to LEDs, or turbo vs supercharger. Different animals altogether.

I have nothing against electric, it's just that you have to do it "right." Many electric fans will move a ton of air, but it does so by having a LOT of blade surface area which tends to limit passive flow at highway speeds.
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Old 02-07-2020, 10:01 AM
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And yes... bigger is better with radiators. The thermostat does the job of keeping it warm enough.

Just like there are only two lengths of rope: Long enough, and not long enough. Undersized radiators are problems. Radiator too big, no worries.
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Old 02-07-2020, 11:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Molon Labe View Post
Thanks Tech,
The electric fans seem to be on everything today. What is it that fuels your dislike for them?
I suppose that if a fellow worked it all out mathematically and purchased all premium quality components that were overbuilt for the work at hand, I would be OK with it. But that's not the way it usually works. 99% of us are not engineers and all we can accomplish is monkey see, monkey do, but not with "the right stuff". Hot rodders are notoriously cheap and will choose the most Fosdick components that they think they can save a penny on. This infuriates me because I have never bought cheap junk in my life. If I didn't have the money to buy the best components, I waited and saved up my money until I could afford the best stuff. And by the way, that's what fuels my hatred for offshore, crap, junk aluminum cylinder heads, but that another story for another time.

So, that's what drives my hatred of electric fans. Nobody takes the time or effort to do the math and purchase first quality components that are engineered together to do the job correctly.

With an engine-driven unit, the engineering has been in place for decades and the components are available over the counter. You choose the largest radiator that you can bolt into the core support. If the core support won't accommodate the radiator, you change the core support for one that will accept the radiator. You move the radiator and core support out to the front-most part of the car to make room for an 18 inch diameter, 7-blade steel fan blade and a thermostatically-controlled fan clutch. You spend the money for the best thermostat money can buy, one that will fail open, rather than closed. I like the ones offered by Milodon or other premium suppliers. Only the best will do.

Buy or build a close-fitting metal or fiberglass shroud to cover the entirety of the back of the radiator, with a hole for the fan blades that allows about 1/2 to 3/4 of an inch all around to allow for the motor shifting slightly on the motor mounts and to prevent the fan blades from contacting the shroud. Install the fan blade halfway in and halfway out of the hole in the shroud. Will there be some backyard engineering to make this whole mess work? Yes, there will be. That's what hot rodding is all about. If you're not up for it, take your car to a professional shop and have them do it for you. I'm really fed up with hearing about overheating problems. There is no excuse for it.

You may experience a condition where road air will go under the front of the car and then pop up behind the radiator, stalling the hot air that is supposed to be coming out of the back of the radiator. In this case, install a flat piece of sheet metal or fiberglass at the bottom of the radiator, extending the width of the engine bay and back to the oil pan. This will prevent road air from stalling the air coming out of the radiator.

Oh, and a word here please, about you fellows who don't have a clue about cooling a motor. Installing a 160 thermostat will not make the motor run cooler if you fail to install all the proper components and engineer the job correctly. The only thing you will accomplish is to run the thermostat wide open ALL THE TIME. You might just as well remove the thermostat altogether. Internal combustion engines are designed to run 190 to 220 all the time. That's normal for them and will afford the best performance, longevity and mileage. Running at a temp of less than 190 will severely limit the life of the motor.

http://www.mahaffeymotorsports.com/FanShrouds.htm
Of course, besides the custom units from Mahaffey, you can find shrouds that are tailor-made for your application from providers who make aftermarket parts for your application .....or.....call some of the larger auto dismantlers. This stuff was made at the factory for 427 Fairlanes.

OK, that's the end of my rant. Carry on.
.

Last edited by techinspector1; 02-07-2020 at 11:49 AM.
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Old 02-07-2020, 12:27 PM
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One needs to consider that modern engines are far more efficient than 20th century designs.

They first of all use much less fuel for the power developed so in general much less heat is being produced in the cylinders. This happens for a lot of individual reasons brought together as a package.

First, EFI provides a much better cylinder to cylinder AFR than a carburetor or earlier EFI systems. So mixture is highly controlled to engine load.

Secondly, ECU control of timng in a more correct range and with coil on plug does it for each cylinder rather than an average for all cylnders that is approximatly correct but precisely wrong as with distributor ignition.

Third, Combustion chamber design is more effctive and efficient requiring less amount of mixture per unit of power.

Fourth, modern oil uses less power to pump and provides better lubricity reducing power on the engine for pumping and frictional losses.

Fifth, is modern automatic transmissions with more gear ratios that are tightly spread keep the engine from lugging where for RPM, manifold vacuum, and lacking spark advance in old mechanical induction and ignition systems forces the engine to use a lot of throttle to pull the load up to where it acheives an efficient crankshaft RPM for the imposed shaft loading.

These things, and I'm sure more I didn't include, deliver more power with less waste thus do it on less fuel so there is heat generated per unit of power in the first place, plus do it more effciently so there again is less wasted heat. Therefore, the modern cooling system, not including their improved effeciencies, are smaller allowing electric pumps and fans to be sufficient and more effective.
These tricks cannot be easily applied to engines designed in the 1950's and 60's even with late 20th century improvements like early EFI, including modern high pressure aftermarket TBI, or GTP, Magnum, or Vortec heads. While these late century advancements offer significant improvements, they alone cannot bring the total package you see in the contemporary production offerings together. So you just cannot follow that path using piece parts from here and there.

Bogie
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Old 02-11-2020, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
Wow, Tech...that price is a real surprise for me, but then I hadn't looked for anything direct fit like that in a long time....used to be in the $500-700 range 10 years ago.

This. When I first swapped my Nova in high school every radiator seemed like it was going to cost more than my rebuild kit. Wonder if they've really gotten cheaper or if adult me has more money... (that was rhetorical )

Ended up running the stock 230 cid I6 radiator in front of my small block. That didn't work. That didn't work, like, at all...
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Old 02-11-2020, 08:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hotrod66_57 View Post
This. When I first swapped my Nova in high school every radiator seemed like it was going to cost more than my rebuild kit. Wonder if they've really gotten cheaper or if adult me has more money... (that was rhetorical )

Ended up running the stock 230 cid I6 radiator in front of my small block. That didn't work. That didn't work, like, at all...
And now you have matured to the point that you know it's the accountants that run things at the factory. You know that the radiator in front of that I6 was barely enough to cool an I6, much less a motor of more horsepower.
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Old 02-11-2020, 10:19 PM
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And now you have matured to the point that you know it's the accountants that run things at the factory. You know that the radiator in front of that I6 was barely enough to cool an I6, much less a motor of more horsepower.
Indeed. I also know how much steam comes out of an engine, especially when that even higher pressure radiator cap you've installed to keep it from overheating finally explodes, when you're sitting at the gas station (luckily that station was only a few miles from home...)

Ah the lessons of youth!
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Old 02-11-2020, 11:57 PM
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I've had good fortune using electric fans . engine operating temps up into the 70's were ,160 stat summer, 180 stat winter."Modern" engines are designed to run hotter and hotter ..
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Old 02-12-2020, 02:52 AM
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Curtis73 makes a good point about electric fans becoming restrictive. I have a Cooling Component's fan and full shroud in my '36 Ford roadster. It is in front of a fairly well built '51 Merc flathead. It does a good job and I normally do not have cooling problems but at 70 mph the car will run warmer without the fan on. It obviously does become restrictive at highway speeds.

John
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