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Old 04-11-2018, 09:53 PM
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CougrrCJ, that sounds like a very sweet piece!

Nice performance from the previous budget version too

A 393W with either 4V closed chamber Cleveland heads, or the CHI aluminum 3V Cleveland heads - (Clevor for the win! ), in a small bumper early Maverick is one of the cars I'd like to do if I ever get the chance.
I think it could do 725hp on pump gas and 775hp if built high compression and on E85.

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Old 04-12-2018, 09:31 AM
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A cougar with a kick-butt small block? Man I love that, and Im not a Ford guy!
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Old 04-12-2018, 01:38 PM
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I had a 67 Cougar in college that I put a K code 289 motor in from a mustang. It got stolen, got it back with a trashed motor and starter. It had a 4:11 9" in it, not good for the highway, easy to over rev.

Later on I got a 69 Cougar XR7 351W 4 spd, then I found the 70 Ranchero GT with a 4v 351C and automatic. The Cougar and the Ranchero we're polar opposites to drive. The Cougar had lots of bottom end torque with a close ratio 4 spd I would skip 2nd gear around town. The Cleveland in the Ranchero would pull forever till you ran out of straight stretch and had to hit the brakes. I always thought that I should swap the transmissions. Now I am building a twin turbo set up for the Ranchero with EFI so I will stay with the automatic. Should be running again this fall, it's looking pretty sweet.

Every motor combination has it's personality, you have to figure out what you like.

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Old 04-12-2018, 09:45 PM
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OP you gave your own answer. 400 hp at the tire is at least 500 crankshaft. A 5.0 block wont live very long at 500 hp. Period.

That much power requires nitrous or forced induction.

C head CLEVORs are ancient technology. Poor flow technology.
SBF AFR heads are the best.

Only 95 Ws had rollers. Dont know if 91 blocks were cast as rollers. You need to stay max. +030 bore.

I suggest you hook up with the Ford boys at a Fox Mustang site. They've tried it all.

When you get your stronger $$ stick trans or a built $$ automatic, then you MUST start on chassis upgrades straight from the Fox racer book.

That 8.8 rear wont last very long either. Youll be into a 31 spline Currie 9.

And thats just the high points.
Good luck to your bank account.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodRay63 View Post
C head CLEVORs are ancient technology. Poor flow technology.
SBF AFR heads are the best.

That 8.8 rear wont last very long either. Youll be into a 31 spline Currie 9.
Inline Windsor heads from AFR get their butts kicked by the modern aftermarket CHI Cleveland heads.....noted Ford guru John Kaase won the Engine Masters Contest 3 different years with a CHI headed 400M based engine, until it was effectively banned by the rules makers to prevent him from winning with it again....and there were several other high finishers using this type of head.
Current NASCAR engine cylinder head technology can also trace its ancestry to the 4V Cleveland head.....they just have better exhaust ports now!

The stock 28 spline Trac-Loc in the 8.8" has its weakness, but step up to 31 or 33 spline internal stuff and these rears are surprisingly strong....housing bracing and a rear girdle complete the package, there are 8-second 1/4 mile small tire drag cars running a lot of these rears.

9" Ford isn't the only game in town. Dana 60 is a better deal if cost is a factor, costs a lot for fully fortify a 9" Ford since all you can keep from a stock piece is the housing, everything else has to be upgraded if you are serious with it.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:23 PM
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Thank you Eric for your considered response.

I cant argue with your $15,000 set up for building a screaming crank twisting street driven race car.

Edit. I will refrain from further comment on Kaase's $40,000 one-off experimental EngineMasters project 400M. Edit end.

I did specify "Clevor" which is not what you advocate either. We agree.

We have often seen 100 hp gains with AFR heads over stock. No doubt OPM buys more.

I find it easy to spend OPM having recently finished a complete carb to pan BluePrintEngines 347 AOD setup.... which my client absolutely demanded be done HIS way ( based on his online advisors)... and he is now so thoroughly disappointed that he hasnt touched it since it got in the garage.

At least the heat and AC works!

Last edited by HotRodRay63; 04-12-2018 at 10:37 PM.
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:41 PM
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Not that I'm arguing with you, just a free spirited banter...but the CHI head is not really any more expensive than the upper level AFR head you would need to compete with it....and you can easily put it on a Windsor block with the right pistons and such.

There are quite a few guys also successfully using the ProComp/SpeedMaster low cost import copy of the CHI style 3V head.

If your on a tighter budget though, I'll agree the most low cost path is conventional Windsor head.

I was just blathering on and made a comment I like the 4V Cleveland intake port potential, makes for a real upper rpm powerhouse.....but probably just mucked up the Op's thread when I did that.

Sorry, Adam83, things got off on a divergent path
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Old 04-12-2018, 10:51 PM
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Mentioning those old closed chamber 4 bbl C heads: yep the ports are big and flow a lot for ancient 1969 technology, but now we get the same flow with increased velocity from much smaller and more efficient ports with much better bowls and turns. Then if we look at those antique closed chambers.... well, at least theyre closed.
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Old 04-13-2018, 12:15 AM
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I wouldn't knock them too hard if you have never owned one. They make a lot more torque then you would think possible. There is a reason that the Boss 351C was the fastest Boss. Bill Glidden knew, most people don't.

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Old 04-13-2018, 01:38 PM
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this is a very interesting thread for a non-Ford guy like myself. I hope the OP encourages further discourse.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:49 PM
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Having costed a similar build I found the cost of building the 392 or the 347 was about the same. Only decision I can make is which one fits a particular chassis. The 347 is/was popular with the Mustang guys because all the acessories fit and the 347 maintains the existing hood lines.. If you go with the cowl scoop the 392 fits ok...

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Old 04-15-2018, 03:03 PM
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Go for it.

I would stick with the Cleveland heads and why not do some port clean up? If you have the money stroke it. Cool to keep the nostalgia going.

Last edited by arnoldsel; 04-15-2018 at 03:10 PM.
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Old 04-16-2018, 10:41 AM
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My point is if youre going to spend big bucks why start with 50 yr old ancient tech heads and spend $2,000 building and porting them.

Here is a good quote:
"In project car math actual dollars fall prey to their theoretical horsepower gains and ...savings. .. when you decide that sixth gear is worth $600 more than just five, even though you barely even get out of third on most of your drives... coated big tube headers... and anything chromed in the engine compartment... It is false logic used to convince ourselves to give in...
Elana Scher, HRM, 1/14
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Old 06-08-2018, 05:04 PM
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Hey everybody I was on sick leave for some time and hadnt got to reply. All my questions have been answered, thanks for all the info, links and suggestions!
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Old 06-09-2018, 02:57 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adam83 View Post
Hey everybody I was on sick leave for some time and hadnt got to reply. All my questions have been answered, thanks for all the info, links and suggestions!
OK,now don't keep us in the dark what are your plans going to be ?
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