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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Lee
then Im not worried about the black... I drove (idle) all the way down the 1/8th without the valve hitting the piston, lol.. I have a lot of room w/ 9:1 pistons and 68cc heads... trust me

What about the color of the plugs bogie? any idea? looks to ME like burnt water?
Yellow and brown, even orange deposits are common with leaded fuel and really not uncommon with unleaded fuel, just depends on what chemistry is in the fuel. The concern is when the plugs are white or white and dark spotted which is running lean, where especially with laughing gas, can toast a piston in an instant. Black and wet you already know about. The rainbow of color in between is fairly meaningless.

The problem with the bent valves is that they could come from being very hot and having loose guides that don't close them evenly on the seat but let them hit the seat at an angle. But I'd put money on whack marks on the pistons. The problem when the springs go into surge is that can let the valve drop further into the cylinder than it would normally be, if that happens when the piston is closing on TDC, the piston will wham the valve into the seat.

Also if the valve hangs in the guide for a moment the same kind of impact can happen with the piston or the rocker can become loose since the cam lobe has moved on, then the spring catches up and slams the valve shut and if again it doesn't hit the seat straight it's bent by the uncontrolled acceleration resulting in extraordinary closing force. So there are several failure modes that can be going on here.

Bogie

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2007, 07:27 PM
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Hmmmmmmm....

Swallow this and tell me what may/may not have happened...

Ok... I launched.... instantly heard "noises" so I got out of it... Idled at a slow speed and kinda crept back into it and they were still there so I idled down the track and got into the pits and took off the valve cover... I saw that the #5 intake valve was stuck open so I called it a night...
When I got home I pulled the rocker off and noticed it was beat to hell on the seat and tip... The pushrod was also kinda wore so Im replacing both

Now.... could that rocker of not been seated and come loose causing this whole ordeal? the pushrod had been hitting that rocker a lot from the gouges... So Im assuming that the rocker wasnt seated in the cup and the rod came out and rode the rocker arm causing more lift due to geometry and the valve hit the piston??

can that be? Or amm I looking at something else?
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2007, 09:24 PM
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how long has it been since the heads were done,valve job,springs,seals?
i would almost bet that your guides are worn seals failed and weak spring pressure caused this.ok,the oil i'm seeing probabley guides,bent valve probabley over reving or just a weak spring.
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Old 11-20-2007, 09:26 PM
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Has to be over rev or somthing similar... Cause the springs came back ok from the machine shop... What about the pushrod/rocker damage?

Also these heads are 1.94/1.5 valve heads I was told they were 1.6/2.02!
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2007, 09:34 PM
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well you ran the engine with a bent valve so there was nothing to keep the push rod from bouncing all over.
i would be a little leary about what someone else told you if they can't been honest about valve size
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2007, 09:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nitro_baller4692
well you ran the engine with a bent valve so there was nothing to keep the push rod from bouncing all over.
i would be a little leary about what someone else told you if they can't been honest about valve size
true, never actually thought the rocker/pushrod happened AFTER the bent valve, lol

No, I got the heads on an engine I just never thought to measure, lol.. Then I saw a google.com search that showed all about the heads and the space between the valves and he said the valves almost touch on a 1.6/2.02 head and mine don't so I busted out the tape and true enough it's just under 2.0 so yeah, lol.. here we are, lol... Oh well It runs damn good then for a small head I think...
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  #67 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2007, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Lee
Hmmmmmmm....

Swallow this and tell me what may/may not have happened...

Ok... I launched.... instantly heard "noises" so I got out of it... Idled at a slow speed and kinda crept back into it and they were still there so I idled down the track and got into the pits and took off the valve cover... I saw that the #5 intake valve was stuck open so I called it a night...
When I got home I pulled the rocker off and noticed it was beat to hell on the seat and tip... The pushrod was also kinda wore so Im replacing both

Now.... could that rocker of not been seated and come loose causing this whole ordeal? the pushrod had been hitting that rocker a lot from the gouges... So Im assuming that the rocker wasnt seated in the cup and the rod came out and rode the rocker arm causing more lift due to geometry and the valve hit the piston??

can that be? Or amm I looking at something else?
I'd expect that the valve got hit by the piston for a multitude of reasons why, the bent valve didn't close the rocker was then free to fall somewhere, the push rod beat on the rocker as the lifter shoved it up and gravity dropped it back so it could hit again.

Bogie
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2007, 05:48 PM
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Well basically here we stand... lol

I have the heads back all freashened up and the new head gaskets and intake gaskets will be here Friday. New pushrod and Rocker are on way also....

I will put it back togather and hope for the best...Im sure I will have more questions later...
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2007, 05:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Lee
Well basically here we stand... lol

I have the heads back all freashened up and the new head gaskets and intake gaskets will be here Friday. New pushrod and Rocker are on way also....

I will put it back togather and hope for the best...Im sure I will have more questions later...
Are you reusing your old spring's? At the least their tension needs to be checked. Each and every one of them.

I would also hope the guides have been bushed and the rocker studs replaced.

Bogie
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2007, 06:07 PM
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They checked everything..Im assuming? Why would I swap rocker studs?
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  #71 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2007, 06:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Lee
They checked everything..Im assuming? Why would I swap rocker studs?
Something went very wrong. What was it? Can you write this off to simply over reving the engine with absolute certanty.

A valve that gets bent is pretty serious business, It's almost always the result of piston and valve meeting. This often cracks the piston as well as bends the valve. The bent stem often damages the lower guide.

If you didn't over rev the engine but the same thing happened because the springs are loosing tension the same kind of damage is done. If the engine is put together with the weakened springs, next time out you'll see a repeat.

From a causal stand point your left not knowing what if any contribution the rocker studs made. If you have one fatiguing, it can look solid but allows the rocker to wander around. It could contribute to another event or may fail out in the future.

I mean this is the kind of event where everything in the system need to be carefully inspected. The next failure could be a lot worse if this is put together with a weak link already there. Just imagine the damage if the head of the bent valve broke. You got off light, it can be be a whole lot worse.

Not trying to scare you, but I have as other racers do, quite the collection of bent and broken rods, valves; broken pistons, cranks, cams, rockers, springs, retainers, pushrods, and blocks; and throughly bashed and busted heads.

So check and inspect carefully.

Bogie
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 11-21-2007, 06:31 PM
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I know I hit the shift light in the burnout.... I just rulled it ok since the motor was still running...

Yes, now Im worried.... The studs are ARP screw in and the springs are 1 1/2 years old? so.... what should my next step be?
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 11-23-2007, 01:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joshua Lee
I know I hit the shift light in the burnout.... I just rulled it ok since the motor was still running...

Yes, now Im worried.... The studs are ARP screw in and the springs are 1 1/2 years old? so.... what should my next step be?
Have or do a test for spring tension against spec. But one and a half years in a race engine is a long time. Many springs take a set after first use, loosing some tension. Even if the engine isn't being run for periods of time there are springs that are in various stages of compression to which they slowly surrender strength. So "wear" happens even if the motor isn't being operated.

The unfortunate thing is that red line as defined by where the springs loose control of themselves isn't a hard fast place in the RPM range. While the manufacturer usually specifies a max safe RPM, as the springs age that moves down the rev range. If you're a high dollar race team, you can afford to push the limit and just cover the repair expense if parts collide. But the typical bucks down week end racer needs to stay under the max rev limit a few hundred RPM to avoid costly repairs.

I'm recommending a careful inspection of the studs to be sure that that are neither a cause nor a result of the damage you see. They should be 7/16s for a race motor with a girdle. The action on the stud causes it to bend slightly and to always be in tension from more at max lift to less when the valve is closed. Similar to how you can break a paper clip by bending back and forth, this is the same type motion the studs see. This is a good method to induce metal fatigue in the stud and in the mounting boss or it threads in the heads. So these are areas where dye-penetrant inspection of the fasteners and magna-flux on the heads needs to be preformed. Also a careful look with a bright light and a magnifying glass is useful.

Lastly I'll say toward spring life, there have been recommendations made over the years to reduce upper end oiling, there are gadgets sold to shut off the top end SBC lube. This is death to the springs, oil is their only means of cooling aside from the inadequacies of conduction from the bottom into the head or convection to the surrounding blow-by vapor cloud. If you have reduced top end oiling, return the system to normal function even if you're running solid lifters.

Bogie
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2007, 12:02 PM
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man...You make GREAT post but seem to ignore what Im trying to answer in your last post's....
I think your a very smart guy but can we try to go one step at a time?

My studs are screw in ARP's and I run a girdle... Do you really think they can be bad?

On my springs...Should I just replace them? or what? I don't own a machine shop or am I rich so anything I pay to have done or buy that isnt really needed is hurting me...


THANKS!
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  #75 (permalink)  
Old 11-24-2007, 12:48 PM
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your studs are probably ok as long as there are no gouges from the rocker arm.
the springs should have consistent pressers at seat and open for the cam you are running,do you have a cam card?
if all checks out you should be good to go,i'm guessing you just over reved the engine.
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