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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2019, 11:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
It would be like a bodyman fixing a dent with bondo without feeling it and driving it over to the paint dept.! How can you do that?

GRRRRRRR

Brian
That never happens! LMAO

I just ask them, "Did you block that wit yer shoe?"

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2019, 11:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Hipster_G View Post
True that, My main reference was to straight acetone being used as a cleaner. It's too fast for my liking to use for a wipe down.

I'm stuck with the low-voc reducers and paints in my state as well. To me there is a difference in how they flow and flash out. I find myself going to a slower reducer.
Just don't go too slow! Of course you know why, it could not flash off fully when you apply something over it, yeow!

Brian
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2019, 11:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Hipster_G View Post
That never happens! LMAO

I just ask them, "Did you block that wit yer shoe?"
It is funny though, I can look at bondo work and know how it will feel almost every time!

Been doing this stuff a while. LOLOL It just happened today, a guy worked MANY hours on it, I was thinking my God, how can you apply and sand off filler so many times! Later, we were closing up and I had to feel it, yep, just as it looked, high in the middle.

Brian
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 01:11 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Just don't go too slow! Of course you know why, it could not flash off fully when you apply something over it, yeow!

Brian
What I find myself doing is , say it's cool out, taking some fast reducer and doing say a 50-50 with some med to slow it down and I end up with some halfasst reducer. LOL
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Old 01-05-2019, 01:20 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
It is funny though, I can look at bondo work and know how it will feel almost every time!

Been doing this stuff a while. LOLOL It just happened today, a guy worked MANY hours on it, I was thinking my God, how can you apply and sand off filler so many times! Later, we were closing up and I had to feel it, yep, just as it looked, high in the middle.

Brian
The painter does the priming there?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Hipster_G View Post
Like you said 100 different ways and everybody has theirs. On the prep-sol, I load it in a 99 cent bottle spray it on and wipe it off. Except for a refill it's always ready to go and I use it start to finish from metal on up. Easier then pour it on a rag and your shoes at the same time. LOL Prep-sol is just fine for cleaning bare metal or wiping down featherfill. A less aggressive solvent is not going to bother it.

Acetone has it's place. Featherfill calls for it as a reducer. So do polyester laminating resins, but glass layups are a different ballgame.

This is why not to use mineral spirits

min·er·al spir·its
/ˈmin(ə)rəl ˈspirits/
noun NORTH AMERICAN
a volatile, colorless liquid distilled from *****PETROLEUM******

It will cause issues.
DISTILLED FROM!!!

I have yet to see an issue with adhesion using it, which makes sense to me because it is a VERY common ingredient right in paints and thinners anyway. We aren't discussing using gasoline here...
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Old 01-05-2019, 06:35 AM
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Originally Posted by CaptMike View Post
"Understood. My warning was that acetone WILL gum up other primers and also paint...and the blue rags mentioned before dissolve very readily in it. T shirt rags do not-- wasn't trying to imply that. Some may think "it doesn't gum them up with just a swipe" but consider the fact that the acetone is likely now carrying debris and IS in fact gumming up the surface enough to deposit it without you really knowing"

Like I wrote, it has not eve been an issue. TRY.... Me, if someone I knew used primer that Acetone melted, I'd recommend a better primer procuct asap

"There's a wide array of wax and grease removers. Indeed wax is ONE of the things they are designed to remove. The one I've used most recently seems to have the scent and feel of mineral spirits, which is what we normally do the wipe down with anyway..but W&G remover has more marketing behind it!"

Again, I'm recommending for Bare Metal and Primer, not PAINT.

The white rag test will work the same for mineral spirits in those applications in my experience. No need to have as "hot" of a solvent as acetone to get oils/silicas/waxes/dirts off of a surface.

Mineral Spirits are MADE from Petroleum !! Try this test after Mineral Sprints, and do you l want to cleanse body parts for painting with a Petroleum product. Doesn't feel right to me...

Have you spoken with your Primer or Paint manufacturer to verify, I would re Mineral Spirits.

"I've not found a glove that will hold up to acetone/xylol long enough for it to be in contact with them for very long, let alone saturated. Plus they are much more flammable. What kind of gloves are you using that will hold up? The best I can find Are the black nitrile gloves, but they still really aren't a match for the solvents in this power range."

Correct, the thicker black ones last the longest, I use lots of them, a whole lot better than Bare Hands. Usually the Tumb and index finger ends go first.

"There's 100 ways to do things, not trying to offend or change anyone. Just an alternate viewpoint and some warnings is all "

I doubt there are 100 different chemical solution adequate for this cleaning.

"@Hipster_G -- are the purpose built "lint free" rags worth it? I have settled in on tshirt rags followed by tack cloths for the final pre-spray wipe. Especially on sand blasted metals, I have not found anything that does not start to leave gratuitous amounts of lint."

Dust will blow off the surface. Clean prior to any Tape application. It is the metal and primer sandings that need to be removed and any OIL from ones HANDS !! I prefer to purchased New Cotton white rags. And never ever use anything other than 100% Cotton, the polyesters etc mfg from Petrolatum will MELT and make a awful mess.

I'm not trying to be a hard-***. But I am very cautious and this works. It is not worth going with an unknown or cheaper product. I always consult with the maker of the products I use. And I've been using Feather Fill and FF G2 more many decades.

One small mishap can ruin a vast amount of labor and materials.

Again, I've done my research and I've never had a primer issue.

The very first time I used Feather Fill was in my initial paint on a '66 Corvette. Being a Fiberglass body the body parts have a coating of Gel Coat. Once Gel Coat is sanded,it's like a sponge soaking up everything So after paint removal and many Wax and Silicone removal treatments, the Feather Fill application SEALS the Gel-Coat so none of anything trapped inside can migrate through the primer into the paint causing blisters etc. This is because the thinners in the paint will not penetrate Feather Fill. This was when most Painted with Lacquers, and Lacquer thinner contains a high percentage of Acetone...

I miss painting the Lacquer, so much fun...
Now hold on. There are loads of primers that very readily come up on the rag after drying if wiping with acetone... I'd put money on it that every single 1K primer out there will do it, and I've had experience with 2k surfacers doing it of at least a few brands.

You should try wiping your plastic glasses down with acetone some time

Yeah, regular old sanding dust will blow off the surface. Sandblasting a cast iron frame and then wiping it down for final prep will basically have it sanding any rag right out of my hand - the only thing that will get it at this point is a tack cloth.

I've used one of the martin sr wax and grease removers as well as the transtar SCAT one, both of which seemingly smell and act like mineral spirits. Look at the ingredients of the scat one, they only say "Aliphatic and Aromatic Hydrocarbons"...that's what things like mineral spirits and naptha are (naptha is also distilled from petroleum...and is ALSO used as a thinner/ingredient without concern of adhesion). Maybe some of the cheaper plastic jug spirits will cause problems due to being a lower grade...don't know...but a paint rep will tell us to use their wax and grease product which seems to be likely a spiritual product...
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:05 AM
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This whole conversation to me is dangerous. There will be guys reading this thread that will be missled and get into trouble.

Wax and grease remover is specifically designed to dry slowly so it will float any oil or contaminates to the surface. It is then to be wiped off before it dries. Any solvent that dries before it can be wiped off will just re-distribute the contaminates. The same goes for W&G remover if not wiped off while wet. The one caution with W&G rem is it needs a little more time to dry before recoating.

Wax and grease remover can be bought for $16 dollars a gallon. There just is no reason not to use the correct product to do the job in my opinion.

John
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 08:32 AM
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Originally Posted by dwighty390 View Post
DISTILLED FROM!!!

I have yet to see an issue with adhesion using it, which makes sense to me because it is a VERY common ingredient right in paints and thinners anyway. We aren't discussing using gasoline here...
I prefer to wash it down with Crown or Turkey 101! lol
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hipster_G View Post
The painter does the priming there?
Yep, the bodymen and painters go back and forth all the time on the body work being right or wrong, it's such a joy.

Brian
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by John long View Post
This whole conversation to me is dangerous. There will be guys reading this thread that will be missled and get into trouble.

Wax and grease remover is specifically designed to dry slowly so it will float any oil or contaminates to the surface. It is then to be wiped off before it dries. Any solvent that dries before it can be wiped off will just re-distribute the contaminates. The same goes for W&G remover if not wiped off while wet. The one caution with W&G rem is it needs a little more time to dry before recoating.

Wax and grease remover can be bought for $16 dollars a gallon. There just is no reason not to use the correct product to do the job in my opinion.

John
YEP!

Brian
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:25 AM
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Following the manufacturers guidelines to a T is always the best way. It's that simple, no thinking, no guessing, no wondering, no getting bad info, just follow the manufacturers guidelines.

Brian
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:31 AM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
Yep, the bodymen and painters go back and forth all the time on the body work being right or wrong, it's such a joy.

Brian
I've been on both sides of that one.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 01-05-2019, 10:47 AM
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Can't really disagree with that. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as it helps keep things fool proof if you don't know what you should do. More often than not, each manufacturer is going to recommend a cleaner under it's own brand.

If you look at wax and grease remover labels and make up, you will find that they are just a mix of other solvents often containing napthas and mineral spirits. Not surprising since there is no such chemical as "wax and grease remover" and it has to be made of something.


http://www.kleanstrip.com/uploads/do...SDS-1700.4.pdf

Oh no! The Klean Strip one contains "petroleum distillates!"

https://apps.sherwin-automotive.com/...glish/1133.pdf

This one from Sherwin Williams actually shows mineral spirits specifically as the sole active ingredient.

https://www.mchem.co.nz/site/mchem/M...VER%20MSDS.PDF

Prepsol is getting more cryptic and shows "turpentine substitute" and "pegasol"...hmm those don't sound like actual chemicals.

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/...e_Spirits1.pdf

Low and behold! "Pegasol 1425" shows "white spirits" as the name of the document and "petroleum spirits" IN the document...

The concern over the word "petroleum" is absolutely silly when you see how common it is. A good mineral spirits *IS* a proper cleaner (I've always used the sunny side or klean strip brands, I believe).

Of the 2 actual wax and grease removers I've owned, I haven't been able to tell any difference other than less generic packaging and cost.
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Old 01-05-2019, 11:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwighty390 View Post
Can't really disagree with that. There is nothing inherently wrong with this as it helps keep things fool proof if you don't know what you should do. More often than not, each manufacturer is going to recommend a cleaner under it's own brand.

If you look at wax and grease remover labels and make up, you will find that they are just a mix of other solvents often containing napthas and mineral spirits. Not surprising since there is no such chemical as "wax and grease remover" and it has to be made of something.


http://www.kleanstrip.com/uploads/do...SDS-1700.4.pdf

Oh no! The Klean Strip one contains "petroleum distillates!"

https://apps.sherwin-automotive.com/...glish/1133.pdf

This one from Sherwin Williams actually shows mineral spirits specifically as the sole active ingredient.

https://www.mchem.co.nz/site/mchem/M...VER%20MSDS.PDF

Prepsol is getting more cryptic and shows "turpentine substitute" and "pegasol"...hmm those don't sound like actual chemicals.

https://irp-cdn.multiscreensite.com/...e_Spirits1.pdf

Low and behold! "Pegasol 1425" shows "white spirits" as the name of the document and "petroleum spirits" IN the document...

The concern over the word "petroleum" is absolutely silly when you see how common it is. A good mineral spirits *IS* a proper cleaner (I've always used the sunny side or klean strip brands, I believe).

Of the 2 actual wax and grease removers I've owned, I haven't been able to tell any difference other than less generic packaging and cost.
The thing is, if you are less experienced to follow the manufacturers guidelines ends all question. To use that manufacturers wax and grease remover that is in the instructions for the product you are priming, painting, or clearing then there is nothing to think about. That's the whole thing I am after. As a former paint rep, EVERY SINGLE paint failure I EVER saw was caused by the "junior chemist" as us reps called them. EVERY SINGLE FAILURE was caused by changing up what is laid out in the tech sheet right there for all to read.

Can you go outside of the box and have success, of course you can. An experienced painter can do it, but someone without that experience needs to follow the tech sheet so they don't make a mistake that can set them back a hundred miles on a project. It's all right there, word for word, just follow it is my advice every time, why, because I have lived it day after day after day getting the phone call from the customer who has a problem. And of course the problem is, many THINK they are good enough to go outside the box. Many pro painters, that is who was calling me, pro painters, shop owners who were the painter, OMG I have story after story after story of "experienced" painters pulling the STUPIDEST mistakes...all thinking they were brilliant.

Just follow the tech sheet!

Brian
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