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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2016, 04:21 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2001Blazer4x4 View Post
10066036 is a 2-piece rear main early style block. Yes it is a Mexican crate motor. No it does not fit OEM roller cams - would need retro-roller if reoller cam is desired.

I worry about the parts combo you described. Flat tops with 62cc heads will be quite high compression and quench area will need to be minimized in order to avoid detonation with a mild cam, even on premium gasoline. Block will need to be zero decked to go with that high of compression. Angle plug heads will be a pain to deal with and there is no real advantage to them these days. I think that straight plug 185cc Pro-filers with 64cc chambers are a REALLY good head for not a lot of money. But either way you will need to zero deck the block so the quench is correct with standard gaskets. Use Felpro head gaskets PN 1003 with aluminum heads. Yes they are expensive. Yes you need them with aluminum heads. If you are going to use a flat tappet cam, then you will need to custom order your heads with (lighter) valve springs for a flat tappet cam(usually at no charge), or the cam lobes will be quickly wiped out. Stock prings for most aluminum heads have become those for roller cams. Most dealers like Summit will custom order for you at their reduced price - talk to customer service.

If you want to go flat tappet I would use a Comp Cams XE268H and be sure to buy the Comp cams lifters (not cheapo off-shore flat tappet lifters like the Summit generics). Use the graphite paste cam lube (Isky I believe) as it stays on the lobe and doesn't drip off. I assume you are aware that flat tappet cams are quite unforgiving and lobes will be eaten and metal distributed throughout your entire new engine if wrong springs, or lube, or modern oil, or wrong break-in procedure is used. Flat tappet cams require high ZDDP oil to survive. Modern oils have removed a lot of the ZDDP because it poisons catalytic converters. All of that said, I use a XE274 Comp Cams flat tappet in my 383 with AFR aluminum heads and Brad Penn 10w30 oil, and have had zero problems. I did remove my inner valve springs for initial camshaft breakin.

Top yours off with an Edelbrock Performer manifold, a 670CFM Holley, and a 1 5/8" set of headers you are good to go. Be sure to curve the HEI distributor correctly with the proper advance kit. Souldn't need a high-stall converter will be making plenty of troque even down low.
Yeah, I'm getting the impression that the angled plug heads that I initially picked out are more hassle then they're worth.
When it comes to looking for heads, what are the advantages and disadvantages of smaller/larger combustion chambers? Presumably the larger you go the more air/fuel you can take in and the lower the compression ratio (as there is more space for the combustion to take place), or is that not correct at all?

I've no preference with flat tappet at all as I don't really know the pros/cons compared to roller. That was just the cam that was part of the hotrod.com "budget heads" article. I assume the advantage to roller cams is longevity as they presumably wear less due to the roller itself (not sure if that's the term) as opposed to just hitting the bottom of a flat tappet? So I'd need a "retro roller cam" then? When I look at Summit for the cams for a 350, they have the options: "Hydraulic flat tappet", "Hydraulic roller tappet", "Mechanical flat tappet". How would i tell the difference between a "Hydraulic roller" and "Retro roller" or are they the same thing?

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2016, 10:51 AM
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GM's factory roller setup uses a sheetmetal 'spider' plate that helps secure the roller lifters in their bores.
Retro-Fit kits use a "tie bar" at the top of the lifter

GM Factory cams have a 'stepped nose' design which uses a thrust retainer plate
Retro Fit kits normally use a thrust button that is trapped against the face of the cam by the timing cover (you shoould use a sturdier timing cover or braze a piece of flat stock in the cover as a reinforcement.

Make sure you measure your pushrod length as it will change.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 04-25-2016, 11:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben17484 View Post
Yeah, I'm getting the impression that the angled plug heads that I initially picked out are more hassle then they're worth.
When it comes to looking for heads, what are the advantages and disadvantages of smaller/larger combustion chambers? Presumably the larger you go the more air/fuel you can take in and the lower the compression ratio (as there is more space for the combustion to take place), or is that not correct at all?

I've no preference with flat tappet at all as I don't really know the pros/cons compared to roller. That was just the cam that was part of the hotrod.com "budget heads" article. I assume the advantage to roller cams is longevity as they presumably wear less due to the roller itself (not sure if that's the term) as opposed to just hitting the bottom of a flat tappet? So I'd need a "retro roller cam" then? When I look at Summit for the cams for a 350, they have the options: "Hydraulic flat tappet", "Hydraulic roller tappet", "Mechanical flat tappet". How would i tell the difference between a "Hydraulic roller" and "Retro roller" or are they the same thing?
Larger chambers are there to manage compression ratio in a downward direction, they have nothing to do with getting more air and fuel in. Actually you'd find that high end race engines go to large valves in very small chambers, that's where the power is. Modern engines have gone to small chambers or rather returned to small chambers of the high compression days but the chambers are much more refined although the details appear minor the effects certainly are not. The L31 Vortec head is a case in point and makes a good model for what to look for in a modern head. These are worth upwards of 50-60 horse gains over older chambered heads.

GM started to move toward a roller hydraulic cam in 1986 first in passenger cars some filtered into pickups prior to 1996. Some pickup engines form 86 through 95 are provisioned for roller cams although the finish machining varies from none to complete but these engines are finished with a flat tappet hydraulic cam. These are easy to convert to the factory roller by finishing the machining if required which is usually drilling and or tapping holes to just bolting the parts in. The parts are the factory roller hydraulic lifters with a so called dog bone that aligns pairs of lifters, a sheet metal retainer called a spider that keeps the dog bones in place. Finally, a thrust plate that keeps the factory (OEM) roller cam in place. The roller cam has at stepped reduced diameter nose about 1/8 inch deep. This requires a unique timing gear that machines back the thrust boss far enough to accommodate the thrust plate. The cam gear for the OEM roller uses a smaller bolt circle that does not fit the older bolt retainer plate. The same block can run a standard flat tappet cam by simply using standard Chevy f/t cam, lifters solid or hydraulic and the timing set common with the older flat tappet engines. SA gear and others make a double row roller timing set that will run with the OEM roller cam by performing some minor clearance grinding the oil main oil galley boss that extends into the timing case.

The L31 Vortec head uses the same rocker as all SBC's since 1996 that is self guiding. If you use these then no other push rod guide should be used as binding the push rod can result. If you use separate guides then the push rods have to be the hardened type and the rocker unguided. For flat tappet cams hydraulic and solid the same 7.8 inch push rod is used, the OEM roller uses a 7.2 inch push rod to make up the length of the .6 inch taller OEM roller tappet. If you use an aftermarket retrofit cam and lifter set you must measure for that unique combination as aftermarket roller lifters are not all the same height. You will find that the factory style sliding foot rocker is not as sensitive to contact point adjustments like a roller tipped rocker. Beyond the standard push rod lengths you will find that you need to get the motor assembled at least the cam in with a degree wheel, the heads on with the gasket to be used then you can use the plastic rocker tool which works very well with the sliding foot rocker. Or with checking springs you can use an adjustable length push rod. You also need to check the standing height of the valve stems with regular springs to see if they are the same especially if you are using rebuild heads. The action of surfacing the head's and the valve's seats can set the valves at differing heights relative to each other. This must be corrected of accounted for on an individual valve basis.

When you get into aftermarket roller cams for the older blocks these are now called retro fit cams. These do not use the step nose and thrust plate but the older and considerably difficult to set up cam button. These cams use the older pre factory roller timing sets common to the flat tappet factory cams. They also use the older wider bolt pattern of the cam gear to cam with the bolt retainer. The retainer is used to "lock" in the cam button. You will find the sheet metal timing cover to lack sufficient stiffness to hold the clearance with the button. The solutions run from welding a plate on the cover which usually distorts it, to purchasing a coolant pump with a threaded boss that allows a nut locking bolt to touch and reinforce the cover at the button contact point. The best solution is a cast aluminum cover, some of which allow the button to mount to the cover so it runs backwards with the clearance toward the cam thus providing some external clearance adjustment. These covers usually have a section cover over the cam that can be removed for set ups. There are also covers that separate the sealing of the oil pan from the cover proper, these are of great benefit with need to adjust button clearance. Such covers should be cast as sheet metal covers tend to leak oil from the chin area under the crank.

Bogie

Last edited by BogiesAnnex1; 04-25-2016 at 11:51 AM.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2016, 09:43 AM
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Thanks again for all the info guys.

looking in to it a bit further, retro roller cams are a bit more expensive than i wanted to go really. This is going to be a weekend street car that doesn't do too many miles, so hopefully it won't be a problem to go solid cam?
If I get the money in a year or so, is it easy to swap in a roller cam?

Reading more about all of the budget heads that i can find and looking further in to 2001Blazer4x4 suggestion, it looks like Pro-filers are pretty highly rated compared the others:

https://www.profilerperformance.com/...ree-heads.html

As they aren't assembled, what other parts would I need to complete them?

would that still work well with the cam i'd found:

Summit Racing® Classic Camshafts SUM-1105 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

Or is there a better option using the pro-filer heads?

Cheers,
Ben
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2016, 10:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben17484 View Post
Thanks again for all the info guys.

looking in to it a bit further, retro roller cams are a bit more expensive than i wanted to go really. This is going to be a weekend street car that doesn't do too many miles, so hopefully it won't be a problem to go solid cam?
If I get the money in a year or so, is it easy to swap in a roller cam?

Reading more about all of the budget heads that i can find and looking further in to 2001Blazer4x4 suggestion, it looks like Pro-filers are pretty highly rated compared the others:

https://www.profilerperformance.com/...ree-heads.html

As they aren't assembled, what other parts would I need to complete them?

would that still work well with the cam i'd found:

Summit Racing® Classic Camshafts SUM-1105 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

Or is there a better option using the pro-filer heads?

Cheers,
Ben
The Profilers are a great head.Even tho they are slightly higher than the budget heads,they are much better head in quality & performance.Much better.
Competition Products has a head assembly kit,or,IIRC,you can order the Profilers with all the hardware included for $125.
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Old 04-26-2016, 10:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
The Profilers are a great head.Even tho they are slightly higher than the budget heads,they are much better head in quality & performance.Much better.
Competition Products has a head assembly kit,or,IIRC,you can order the Profilers with all the hardware included for $125.
Not sure how I missed that, but you're right, you can get them assembled for $125.

Would I want:

.550 Lift,1.25 Single Springs,Steel Retainers,Keepers Assembled +$125

or

.650 Lift 1.437 Dual Hyd Roller Springs,Steel Retainers +$125

both for $125.
I'm guessing the second one is for roller cams as mentioned in the name?
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2016, 11:50 AM
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Originally Posted by ben17484 View Post
Not sure how I missed that, but you're right, you can get them assembled for $125.

Would I want:

.550 Lift,1.25 Single Springs,Steel Retainers,Keepers Assembled +$125

or

.650 Lift 1.437 Dual Hyd Roller Springs,Steel Retainers +$125

both for $125.
I'm guessing the second one is for roller cams as mentioned in the name?
Yes. And you will need to change if you later go with a roller cam.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2016, 12:30 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ben17484 View Post
Thanks again for all the info guys.

looking in to it a bit further, retro roller cams are a bit more expensive than i wanted to go really. This is going to be a weekend street car that doesn't do too many miles, so hopefully it won't be a problem to go solid cam?
If I get the money in a year or so, is it easy to swap in a roller cam?

Reading more about all of the budget heads that i can find and looking further in to 2001Blazer4x4 suggestion, it looks like Pro-filers are pretty highly rated compared the others:

https://www.profilerperformance.com/...ree-heads.html

As they aren't assembled, what other parts would I need to complete them?

would that still work well with the cam i'd found:

Summit Racing® Classic Camshafts SUM-1105 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

Or is there a better option using the pro-filer heads?

Cheers,
Ben
As I said before, Comp Cams XE268H if you want a flat tappet in a street vehicle with a 350. Why buy good heads and a cheapo no-name cam? Get name brand lifters too, unless you like risking the rest of your build on cheapo parts. When a cam lobe goes, the bottom end comes completely apart and goes back to the machine shop to get all the metal particles out.

I believe Vinnie had a recommendation for a mild Hydraulic Roller - could work very well on the street with the Profiler heads - this cam has even milder specs than the Comp XE268H flat tappet. Hydraulic roller cams in general make more power because the rollers can follow more radical lob profiles even at the same lift/duration specifications. Lift and duration might be the same, but a roller cam will open the valve faster - giving more time the valve is open near full lift. This is the best of both worlds and you don't have to worry about lobe wear and special oils. Downside is the cost of a retro roller cam. Your choice.

Last edited by 2001Blazer4x4; 04-26-2016 at 12:55 PM.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 04-26-2016, 12:43 PM
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Lunati has a VooDoo similar to the XE268; its supposed to be a little more gentle on the valvetrain and make a lil bit more power. Can't go wrong with either. The original Comp '268' was designed by the same guy as the VooDoo
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 04-27-2016, 08:11 PM
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dont buy that cam you listed if you buy profiler heads. You do not need that big of split in duration if any at all. Buy the cam as a kit including springs and retainers,bare castings and a "quality " set of valves.
Look at the Isky Z-25 cam as a decent match for a mild 350
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