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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 09-05-2019, 10:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodMan View Post
Y
One thing I notice that happens now that did not happen before the rebuild is that sometimes when I put my foot on the brake pedal, the pedal will slip down quickly for about a half inch and then catch again. The pedal is still firm but it did not do that before. I thought that was weird but did not know what to make of it. I had an idea that may be a master cylinder problem. What do you think?

Thanks so much for your comments and questions.
That tells me the master cylinder is not worth a crap (no good).

Back the front brake off and re-test.

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Old 09-06-2019, 02:50 AM
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From what you have said I agree with 64nailhead Faulty Master Cylinder
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 09-06-2019, 05:23 AM
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Try putting your old MC back on.
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Old 09-06-2019, 05:59 AM
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Originally Posted by HotRodMan View Post
One thing I notice that happens now that did not happen before the rebuild is that sometimes when I put my foot on the brake pedal, the pedal will slip down quickly for about a half inch and then catch again. The pedal is still firm but it did not do that before. I thought that was weird but did not know what to make of it. I had an idea that may be a master cylinder problem. What do you think?

Thanks so much for your comments and questions.

That says the master cylinder is crap, BUT that would be a SECOND problem. Cracking the bleeders and finding no pressure ruled it out as the primary problem.
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Old 09-06-2019, 07:33 AM
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Got to admit when I said Master Cylinder I had not read this bit.

"Tonight when I test drove the car, the front wheels started dragging I brought the car into the garage, jacked it up, and the wheels would not turn forward but would turn backwards as it usually does. I loosened the bolts on the master cylinder at the fire wall and giggled the master cylinder around, next I disconnected the brake line from the master cylinder that feeds the front brakes, a little fluid dribbled out, I then loosened the bleeder valve at the wheel cylinder, a little fluid dribbled out, but after all this the wheels were still stuck. Not sure what to try next."

Now in view that you released the bleed nipples and the brakes still stayed on it sounds more like mechanical than fluid related.

What I would do next while it is in the garage is to take one front drum off on the drivers side for better communication, make sure the brake are fully in the returned position, then get someone to slowly push the brake pedal down and release while you watch what is happening to the brake shoe, are they going out and returning fully. You just have to be careful that the person pressing the pedal does push down to hard and pop the wheel cylinder pistons. You could always put a small ratchet slightly loose around the shoes to prevent this happening.
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Old 09-06-2019, 08:04 AM
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Originally Posted by HotRodMan
One thing I notice that happens now that did not happen before the rebuild is that sometimes when I put my foot on the brake pedal, the pedal will slip down quickly for about a half inch and then catch again. The pedal is still firm but it did not do that before. I thought that was weird but did not know what to make of it. I had an idea that may be a master cylinder problem. What do you think?

Thanks so much for your comments and questions.


Quote:
Originally Posted by 55 Tony View Post
That says the master cylinder is crap, BUT that would be a SECOND problem. Cracking the bleeders and finding no pressure ruled it out as the primary problem.

Agree MC, needs to be check, put the old one back in get his $$ back.

It worked before, lesson learned, do not fix s h i t , if it ain't broke.

@ Tony, I think the dribble was with the pedal in home position. How I interpreted the post ?

Pep
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Old 09-06-2019, 12:14 PM
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Whenever I turned a set of drums I always arced the shoes to fit.


Making sure that the drums were still in specs.


Sounds like its heat related.


what is the Condition of the springs and are they attached correctly and in correct positions?


Drum brakes work by locking in position when pedal is depresses and then they have to unlock when released.


Have you tried loosening the adjustment to see if that works, if so you can eliminate the hydraulics.
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:14 AM
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sticking brake problem still exists but found the reason

I ordered a new master cylinder and I can tell a world of difference in the replacement over the other new unit. The piston is much harder to push in and it does not go in as far. Feels much firmer. I ordered a new, not rebuilt unit both times in an effort to prevent problems. I have not installed it yet.

I took one hub off at a time and press the brake pedal down, and the front shoe moves forward and up a little bit and then sticks in that position. The rear shoe does not move at all. This must be what is causing the brake shoes to drag. It is doing this on all 4 wheels now. I am sure it did not do this on the rear in the beginning because I put my hand on all 4 wheels when the problem first started and the rear wheels were cool. The problem got worse as I drove the car and I think its because the rear, (front) shoes are now pushing forward and sticking, where they were not doing that before.

So far I have checked my old shoes against the new shoes and they are identicle. The springs are strong because it takes a lot of strength to get them on there. Ware pattern on the shoes is located on the upper 90% of the shoe. Primary short shoe on front, secondary long shoe on back. I have already removed the front wheel cylinders, honed, cleaned, checked for smooth operation, lubed with brake fluid.

It does not make sense to me that only the front shoe on all 4 wheels is moving and then gets stuck and the back shoe is not moving at all. It also does not make sense that the rear did not do this originally but now they are. I suspect there might be trash in the brake lines, or I have 4 bad wheel cylinders which does not seem likely. Strangest problem I have ever encountered with brakes.

Would be interested in your thoughts on what to do next. Thanks for all the help so far.
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Old 09-09-2019, 11:28 AM
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Originally Posted by rip-tide View Post

@ Tony, I think the dribble was with the pedal in home position. How I interpreted the post ?

Pep

Yes, I take the dribble in home position as a sign that there is no fluid pressure holding the brakes on. If it were a hydraulic problem, fluid would squirt out and release the brakes.


Am I answering what you were asking or am I off?
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodMan View Post

I took one hub off at a time and press the brake pedal down, and the front shoe moves forward and up a little bit and then sticks in that position. The rear shoe does not move at all. This must be what is causing the brake shoes to drag. It is doing this on all 4 wheels now. I am sure it did not do this on the rear in the beginning because I put my hand on all 4 wheels when the problem first started and the rear wheels were cool. The problem got worse as I drove the car and I think its because the rear, (front) shoes are now pushing forward and sticking, where they were not doing that before.
I could be really helpful if you could post a video of this.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2019, 11:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodMan View Post
I ordered a new master cylinder and I can tell a world of difference in the replacement over the other new unit. The piston is much harder to push in and it does not go in as far. Feels much firmer. I ordered a new, not rebuilt unit both times in an effort to prevent problems. I have not installed it yet.

I took one hub off at a time and press the brake pedal down, and the front shoe moves forward and up a little bit and then sticks in that position. The rear shoe does not move at all. This must be what is causing the brake shoes to drag. It is doing this on all 4 wheels now. I am sure it did not do this on the rear in the beginning because I put my hand on all 4 wheels when the problem first started and the rear wheels were cool. The problem got worse as I drove the car and I think its because the rear, (front) shoes are now pushing forward and sticking, where they were not doing that before.

So far I have checked my old shoes against the new shoes and they are identicle. The springs are strong because it takes a lot of strength to get them on there. Ware pattern on the shoes is located on the upper 90% of the shoe. Primary short shoe on front, secondary long shoe on back. I have already removed the front wheel cylinders, honed, cleaned, checked for smooth operation, lubed with brake fluid.

It does not make sense to me that only the front shoe on all 4 wheels is moving and then gets stuck and the back shoe is not moving at all. It also does not make sense that the rear did not do this originally but now they are. I suspect there might be trash in the brake lines, or I have 4 bad wheel cylinders which does not seem likely. Strangest problem I have ever encountered with brakes.

Would be interested in your thoughts on what to do next. Thanks for all the help so far.

I think you are trying too many things.
Also, with no drum on it's highly possible what you are seeing is normal. If you put all but 1 front drum on again and put a C clamp around the backing plate in such a manner as to only allow the front shoe to move 1/16", then try lightly pressing the pedal. I'm sure then the rear shoe would also move outward. What this will prove ... IDK? Probably that your rear brakes did not also suddenly develop a problem.


Also I would hold off with the master cylinder until the first problem is fixed. If fluid didn't come squirting out the bleeders with the pedal up and the front wheels locked up, then the fluid is not holding the brakes on.
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2019, 12:07 PM
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Agree, without the drums,the master is only going to push so far. Try holding down the front shoe and you may see the rear move instead.
Somewhere in the post you said you changed the hoses? New hoses ?
Im still going back to my first comment. Drums have to be in spec, not exceed max diameter. Shoes arced to fit or at least place them in the drum and see that they are making contact on the whole shoe evenly. Condition of the springs and placement of the hardware. It sounds like its heat related and a mechanical issue. try loosening the adjustment and see if that helps
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 09-09-2019, 12:08 PM
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I ran into a problem like this years ago. It turned out to be a badly worn backing plate where the edge of the shoes rested. It was worn from the shoes rubbing the backing plate and this roughness was enough to cause the shoes to stay expanded. Check out those pads and make sure it is smooth. Every shoe type brake job I do part of the routine is to make sure those pads are smooth.

Last edited by Rip VW; 09-09-2019 at 12:22 PM. Reason: opps
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Old 09-09-2019, 01:22 PM
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If I remember right we used to put a little high temp grease right there where the shoes rested.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 09-10-2019, 07:27 AM
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Lightly greasing the contact points is good. You might Google and download some diagrams to be sure you have things assembled correctly, the springs should always retract the shoes if they're in the right place...

Russ
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