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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2018, 12:22 PM
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Where is the pressure regulator located? should be as close to the carburetor as possible.
+ for a return system. Only way to go!

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Old 11-29-2018, 12:26 PM
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Humm, reading more of your details and these other replies, I'm wondering if there isn't a electrical component in this.

Thinking of the possibility that either the motor or wiring problem that causes heating in some element of this chain and therefore a reduction in motor speed which would be seen as a pressure loss at the carb. This could be monitored as a voltage at the motor to see if there is a voltage loss at the motor that coincides with the pressure loss. That would I'd the power delivery system as the culprit or not. Testing the pump motor could be be temp thermocouple or reading the amperage on the ground side which might involve remounting the motor so it is electrically isolated fron ground, then hard wiring the ground so it passes through an amp gauge to see if the power drops off as the motor gets warm, and if this coincides with a pressure drop.

Bogie
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Old 11-29-2018, 01:19 PM
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Wow, something often overlooked. I have a clamp on DC amp gauge, which I can just loop over a wire and test. Happens more often than we think, alternators drag trying to keep up with the current pulls the motor speed down and can drop the voltage if wire sizing is incorrect for loads as well.
Good catch!
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Old 11-29-2018, 02:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 36 sedan View Post
Wow, something often overlooked. I have a clamp on DC amp gauge, which I can just loop over a wire and test. Happens more often than we think, alternators drag trying to keep up with the current pulls the motor speed down and can drop the voltage if wire sizing is incorrect for loads as well.
Good catch!
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
Humm, reading more of your details and these other replies, I'm wondering if there isn't a electrical component in this.

Thinking of the possibility that either the motor or wiring problem that causes heating in some element of this chain and therefore a reduction in motor speed which would be seen as a pressure loss at the carb. This could be monitored as a voltage at the motor to see if there is a voltage loss at the motor that coincides with the pressure loss. That would I'd the power delivery system as the culprit or not. Testing the pump motor could be be temp thermocouple or reading the amperage on the ground side which might involve remounting the motor so it is electrically isolated fron ground, then hard wiring the ground so it passes through an amp gauge to see if the power drops off as the motor gets warm, and if this coincides with a pressure drop.

Bogie

Well, I kinda took care of that, too. The original owner had the pump located under the cab on the driver's side and powered by 14 ga wire thru a 30 A relay. Sooooooooo, in my inimitable over-kill style, I moved the pump to the rear under the cell and put a 60A continuous duty White-Rodgers relay in the pump's previous location. I used the existing relay to power my new relay which uses 8ga wire directly from the battery to power the pump. I ran this configuration last year during testing for well over an hour with enough restriction to pressure it at 6 psi. The pump ran cool and the pressure never varied at all. Not even the slightest. I even tried the difference between using a battery and then using a power supply (I'm a HAM enthusiast) for perfectly regulated current. I found no variance between the 13.8V battery and the PSU.

What I am thinking, folks, is that my issues are stemming from the carb ingesting hot air. The air actually going into the carb is heating it and causing some fuel to vaporize which would cause a pressure loss. My problem is I'm getting too old to get around as I used to, plus the added bonus of my physical health being what it is, I can't start cutting the hood, adding scoops, painting, etc. I could possibly fabricate a dual snorkel filter housing but there is no room to run fresh air ducts anywhere. Just the fact that I can nearly eliminate the problem by running the truck with the hood on the safety latch pretty much tells the story. I think. So, I have this idea. If nobody knows of a regulator that actually regulates instead of limits, does anyone know of some flush mount air vents that would snap into a hole? I'm thinking something that may look like the cowl vents for the heater intake or similar. Just plastic vents where I could cut the hole and then snap the vents in. This should drop the under-hood pressure of the hot air coming thru the radiator from the two 2700 cfm fans. Ideas?
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:15 PM
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Old 11-29-2018, 04:45 PM
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I remember a good bit from your previous thread about the fuel problems with your truck, but one detail....is it being run as a dead head regulated system, or a full return system(not a bleed return)??

A full return system doesn't limit flow at all, it just returns to the tank whatever is ABOVE the selected pressure.

I use the Moroso Bypass regulating fuel log on my stuff, it is a poppet bypass that feeds the carb first and sends whatever is left over back to the tank. If the carb needs everything the pump can make, it all goes in the carb and there is nothing left for the bypass to return, anything the carb doesn't take in and that is above the set pressure gets bypassed back to the tank.

If it is a dead head regulator, who's??, as some can easily be converted to a bypass style.
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Old 11-29-2018, 06:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg T View Post

What I am thinking, folks, is that my issues are stemming from the carb ingesting hot air. The air actually going into the carb is heating it and causing some fuel to vaporize which would cause a pressure loss. My problem is I'm getting too old to get around as I used to, plus the added bonus of my physical health being what it is, I can't start cutting the hood, adding scoops, painting, etc. I could possibly fabricate a dual snorkel filter housing but there is no room to run fresh air ducts anywhere. Just the fact that I can nearly eliminate the problem by running the truck with the hood on the safety latch pretty much tells the story. I think. So, I have this idea. If nobody knows of a regulator that actually regulates instead of limits, does anyone know of some flush mount air vents that would snap into a hole? I'm thinking something that may look like the cowl vents for the heater intake or similar. Just plastic vents where I could cut the hole and then snap the vents in. This should drop the under-hood pressure of the hot air coming thru the radiator from the two 2700 cfm fans. Ideas?
Just run a air cleaner with a snorkel to the inner fender. The air inside the inner fender is colder then inside the engine bay. No cutting the hood or anything drastic.
Factory systems have been using this setup for years. Snorkel to the inner fender or the area behind the front clip usually behind a headlight a bit away from the radiator.


That being said regulators don't restrict. They regulate.
If it is set for 10 psi it is going to let 10 psi through as long as more then 10 psi is maintained to feed that regulator.

With a dead head system or one where the regulator is mounted on say the frame. Then you "could" have your lines ran near a heat source which would heat the non moving fuel which would create vapor lock.
2 problems with this. It is happening while your running and I believe your lines are away from heat sources and protected by a wrap.

If this is somehow causing your issue though moving the regulator near the carb and installing a return style fuel system will fix this. The return style fuel system circulates fuel from the tank up to the regulator then back to the tank X times a minute depending on your pumps GMH/LPH flow rating. This circulating keeps the fuel cool so the only stationary fuel is from the regulatior to the injectior. But as the thing is running fuel is being used and that cooler fuel is introduced into the float keeping everything happy. That in combination with your air gap manifold should keep that float cool enough to drive across I 10 in July without issue.





Lets go back to when this thing is doing this.
20 minutes into a drive the thing is running out of fuel due to heat.
But maybe it is not running out maybe it simply has to much which could be due to many things.

What have your spark plugs told you about the fuel mixture and condition?
Spark plug reading can be complex and sometimes frustrating task this page will help make it easier and the results rewarding
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2018, 09:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
I remember a good bit from your previous thread about the fuel problems with your truck, but one detail....is it being run as a dead head regulated system, or a full return system(not a bleed return)??

A full return system doesn't limit flow at all, it just returns to the tank whatever is ABOVE the selected pressure.

I use the Moroso Bypass regulating fuel log on my stuff, it is a poppet bypass that feeds the carb first and sends whatever is left over back to the tank. If the carb needs everything the pump can make, it all goes in the carb and there is nothing left for the bypass to return, anything the carb doesn't take in and that is above the set pressure gets bypassed back to the tank.

If it is a dead head regulator, who's??, as some can easily be converted to a bypass style.
I removed the regulator and the return system as it was not helping the situation. I now have an adjustable pump dead head system. I have tested it during cold operation and at 7 psi idling or slow cruising, when I mash it and make a long WOT run I drop to about 6.5 to maybe 6 psi. Depends on the weather and such.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
Just run a air cleaner with a snorkel to the inner fender. The air inside the inner fender is colder then inside the engine bay. No cutting the hood or anything drastic.
Factory systems have been using this setup for years. Snorkel to the inner fender or the area behind the front clip usually behind a headlight a bit away from the radiator.


That being said regulators don't restrict. They regulate.
If it is set for 10 psi it is going to let 10 psi through as long as more then 10 psi is maintained to feed that regulator.

With a dead head system or one where the regulator is mounted on say the frame. Then you "could" have your lines ran near a heat source which would heat the non moving fuel which would create vapor lock.
2 problems with this. It is happening while your running and I believe your lines are away from heat sources and protected by a wrap.

If this is somehow causing your issue though moving the regulator near the carb and installing a return style fuel system will fix this. The return style fuel system circulates fuel from the tank up to the regulator then back to the tank X times a minute depending on your pumps GMH/LPH flow rating. This circulating keeps the fuel cool so the only stationary fuel is from the regulatior to the injectior. But as the thing is running fuel is being used and that cooler fuel is introduced into the float keeping everything happy. That in combination with your air gap manifold should keep that float cool enough to drive across I 10 in July without issue.

Lets go back to when this thing is doing this.
20 minutes into a drive the thing is running out of fuel due to heat.
But maybe it is not running out maybe it simply has to much which could be due to many things.

What have your spark plugs told you about the fuel mixture and condition?
Spark plug reading can be complex and sometimes frustrating task this page will help make it easier and the results rewarding
I had a full circulating return system on this vehicle when I took possession of it. I had the exact same problem with it then. I began chasing this issue back then, 7 or 8 years ago. Went thru about 3 regulators and two pumps since. It is certainly entering a lean condition when the pressure drops. There's no doubt about that. Raising the float level from the center of the sight glass to the top did help a little bit, but that is not a cure. Unfortunately, I don't have room on the inner fenders to put an air intake unless I move my ignition box, coil, fuel filter, etc. I may run two of those vents in the hood mentioned by 36 Sedan and connect a flexible hose between them and the air filter.
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Old 11-29-2018, 11:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg T View Post
I removed the regulator and the return system as it was not helping the situation. I now have an adjustable pump dead head system. I have tested it during cold operation and at 7 psi idling or slow cruising, when I mash it and make a long WOT run I drop to about 6.5 to maybe 6 psi. Depends on the weather and such.



I had a full circulating return system on this vehicle when I took possession of it. I had the exact same problem with it then. I began chasing this issue back then, 7 or 8 years ago. Went thru about 3 regulators and two pumps since. It is certainly entering a lean condition when the pressure drops. There's no doubt about that. Raising the float level from the center of the sight glass to the top did help a little bit, but that is not a cure. Unfortunately, I don't have room on the inner fenders to put an air intake unless I move my ignition box, coil, fuel filter, etc. I may run two of those vents in the hood mentioned by 36 Sedan and connect a flexible hose between them and the air filter.
Well you've certainly been around the post with this.

I'm surprised by several things such as a drop of 1 psi at WOT on a carb causes a lean condition. To start with 7 psi or even 6 is a pretty stout pressure for a carb. A Holley will generally handle this much pressure, an Edelbrock would be swimming in gasoline at these pressures. I'm more than a little skeptical that underhood induction air temperature could be hot enough to do all of this, not that I'm opposed to a cool air source but induction air would have to be incredibly hot to gasify fuel in the float bowls or fuel lines.

I guess a description of the underhood configuration is in order:

As in are you running a blower, turbo, or some other power boost system?

What exactly is the carb and how is it jetted.

Where is the regulator in relation to the carb?

What is the fuel pump by maker and part number?

What is the intake manifold by maker and part number?

What are the heads again maker and part number?

Do you run an insulating spacer between intake and carb, also, is there a heat shield between carb (float bowls) and intake?

What coolant temperatures do you see when this is in operation?

What is the ignition timing?

I'm trying to see what is the tune and temperatures, and what heat isolation for the carb exists and if anything is out of whack enough to cause the conditions you see.

To go back over territory already travelled, such a pressure drop on a system correctly configured would result from an inability to provide as much fuel as was being consumed. Further, a pressure drop of 1 psi from 7 to 6 on a carb should not create a lean condition. That brings the question as to whether the engine exhibits lean mixture as in backfire, hesitation, detonation, and hot running along with the pressure drop? There just seems to be a lot about this that does not compute. I suppose this also brings the thought that the gauge changes accuracy with temperature where there may be nothing actually happening with the pump pressure.

Bogie
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Old 11-30-2018, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
Well you've certainly been around the post with this.

I'm surprised by several things such as a drop of 1 psi at WOT on a carb causes a lean condition. To start with 7 psi or even 6 is a pretty stout pressure for a carb. A Holley will generally handle this much pressure, an Edelbrock would be swimming in gasoline at these pressures. I'm more than a little skeptical that underhood induction air temperature could be hot enough to do all of this, not that I'm opposed to a cool air source but induction air would have to be incredibly hot to gasify fuel in the float bowls or fuel lines.

I guess a description of the underhood configuration is in order:

As in are you running a blower, turbo, or some other power boost system?

What exactly is the carb and how is it jetted.

Where is the regulator in relation to the carb?

What is the fuel pump by maker and part number?

What is the intake manifold by maker and part number?

What are the heads again maker and part number?

Do you run an insulating spacer between intake and carb, also, is there a heat shield between carb (float bowls) and intake?

What coolant temperatures do you see when this is in operation?

What is the ignition timing?

I'm trying to see what is the tune and temperatures, and what heat isolation for the carb exists and if anything is out of whack enough to cause the conditions you see.

To go back over territory already travelled, such a pressure drop on a system correctly configured would result from an inability to provide as much fuel as was being consumed. Further, a pressure drop of 1 psi from 7 to 6 on a carb should not create a lean condition. That brings the question as to whether the engine exhibits lean mixture as in backfire, hesitation, detonation, and hot running along with the pressure drop? There just seems to be a lot about this that does not compute. I suppose this also brings the thought that the gauge changes accuracy with temperature where there may be nothing actually happening with the pump pressure.

Bogie

Nooooo, I should have explained a bit more detail. 1 psi drop does not cause a lean condition. After the engine is hot and the pressure drops to 2 or 3 psi it would lean out. My carb was designed and tuned to run 6 to 6.5 psi and runs perfectly as low as 5 psi. So, now I start at about 7 psi cold so that it falls into that range when hot. Since I insulated the carb and punched holes in the core support and inner fenders it only drops to 4.5 to 5 psi and runs well. Back when the pressure was dropping to zero or near zero it was absolutely lean. Surging, missing, rough idle, bad hesitation off idle and no response from idle mix screws. Now that it's fairly well insulated mix screws work, idle is fine and no off-idle hesitation is present. BUT, it's still dropping from 7 to about 5 or a little under and it makes no sense to me.

Config is:

No regulator. Edelbrock adjustable 1721 pump mounted 18" away and below cell. -8AN all the way thru. Billet 30 micron high flow filter under the hood and 3/8 dual fuel feed to a QFT Street Q 750 with high flow needles, jetted 74/84 and rear jet extensions. Intake is Edelbrock RPM Air Gap.

Yes, the carb is well insulated with a 1/2" fiber insulator, aluminum heat shield (Holley), 1/2" plastic spacer, and all thick insulating gaskets.

Engine is a 388 stroker with lightened crank, KB flat tops, Edelbrock E-Tec 200 heads, cam is 245/242 @ .050" with .6" lift on a 112 LSA and 108 ICL. Ignition timing is 20 initial, 10 vac on manifold port, 16 mechanical for a total of 36 mechanical at WOT all in by 3k rpm. Fuel is ethanol-free 91 plus Klotz octane booster mixed so that my fuel is 94 octane.

180 coolant stat that runs true, fans on at 195 and off at 180.

Last edited by Greg T; 11-30-2018 at 07:33 AM.
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Old 11-30-2018, 08:44 AM
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When hot and out of the idle circuit what does your air fuel look like?

Go off your plugs not a gauge. That last link will show you how to read plugs for proper timing and air fuel when hot.

Have you tried running rich to see if your simply to lean and a gauge or sensor is wrong?
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Old 11-30-2018, 09:20 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cerial View Post
When hot and out of the idle circuit what does your air fuel look like?

Go off your plugs not a gauge. That last link will show you how to read plugs for proper timing and air fuel when hot.

Have you tried running rich to see if your simply to lean and a gauge or sensor is wrong?
Yeah, I've been reading plugs for 45 years. But I've changed to E3 plugs a couple of years ago and they're not so easy to read. Also, I live in town so making a plug reading would be an all day affair if I wanted to be accurate. My current tune is perfect when the fuel is there. I've made dyno runs in the past and my current jetting is dead nuts at 75 ambient temps. The only time I have an issue with driveability is when the pressure gets below 3 psi. So far, I have THAT problem licked. Now I need to keep it from dropping away from 6 psi.
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:06 PM
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I never like resurrecting old threads but I figured I'd tie this one in and get a few opinions. Up until now I've always used those "rinky dink" FP regulators, you know, the nice shiny ones that cost about 25 to 30 bux, without good results. I just picked up one of these because after some research, they appear to work differently than the others. Maybe I'm wrong, but the innards appear to work the way I perceive a "regulator" should work. I grabbed a Holley Dominator 12-847 and will string a 1/2" return line back to the cell. Does anyone have any thoughts on these?
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:22 PM
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Way better regulator. They work by using a check ball and spring to make a restriction for regulation.
The tighter the spring, the more the restriction the higher the pressure. So on those, set them to the min pressure you can get away with to maximize flow. I've got one on 406 and has no problem feeding to 8000rpm with a mechanical pump.
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Old 12-12-2018, 02:30 PM
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Way better regulator. They work by using a check ball and spring to make a restriction for regulation.
The tighter the spring, the more the restriction the higher the pressure. So on those, set them to the min pressure you can get away with to maximize flow. I've got one on 406 and has no problem feeding to 8000rpm with a mechanical pump.

My carb was set up for 6.5 PSI but I can reset float levels if necessary. I'm going to run a gauge before and after the regulator. I figured I'd run maybe 8 or 9 PSI into the regulator as that should be enough head room.
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