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Old 01-04-2017, 06:22 AM
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Thanks for the good list. I'm going to look into these. I'll give the stones a try, but I really like the flap discs. They've given me good results.


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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 01-04-2017, 06:31 AM
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Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
those are big parts of it. Taking your time is the most important thing to consider. If you set your gaps to where it's not an issue or an area where you have to turn down your settings to jump the gap, got it tacked in enough areas, it's just a matter of two hot tacks, skip to the other side, two hot tacks, skip back to other side away from first weld, two hot tacks, back to the other side, etc, etc. When you have gaps or areas that bother you, we have a tendency to want to address it now or all at once, not allowing the metal to cool.
You can wait until the metal cools on its own if you have all day or weeks to weld a few inches or use an air blower to speed things up it does NOT cool the metal fast enough to warp anything. Give it a try on some scrap and see for yourself I've been doing it for years and like I said I can weld a patch dead in the middle of a hood or roof without walking away or stopping until its done, I have to its how I make the majority of my living. As your practicing try doing 2-3 hot tacks and blowing air over it. We all have our ways, this is just my way. Im not saying anybody is wrong or right just try a few different ways and see what works for you.
Theres a lot of ways to warp the metal, the most common way I see people doing is having any stress in the joint before hitting it with a weld. Like the two pieces aren't tight together (wavey) and you use a screwdriver or something to push on the wavey metal to close up the gap. It'll start to warp as soon as the weld hits it.
Grinding the welds and getting them too hot is another common way to warp metal. Its easy to do with a grinding disc or flap wheel, especially if the PSI is set to high, another reason to grind Welds with the stones and grind with the disc after using the stone and the weld is almost flush. BTW the finer the grinding disc the easier it'll be to warp the metal don't use 80 use 36grit or 40 if you cant find 36 nothing finer than 40.
I seen a lot of guys completely destroy a car just stripping paint with a grinding disc and warping the heck out of it, they heat up metal FAST and the finer the grit the faster they do it.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:24 AM
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why you need to let your tacks cool

I posted this back in 2008. I don't know the alloy content of weld wire but it has enough carbon to make it stiff enough to feed and not tangle in your gun-liner etc. ....

In my metalurgy class the professor did a demo heating a small dia. spring steel wire (I think about .030 )...He stretched a 10 ft piece in the front of the class ...He had the wire connected in series with a 110 volt light bulb with a light switch...When he turned the switch on the light came on and as the curremt continued to flow thru the spring wire it heated up and as it heated up and got hot it expanded and started to sag. then as it got to a dull red color it started to shrink and the wire tightened up. he then turned off the switch and said if he left it on it would have melted. He explained that when the metal wire got to the critical temperature the molecules rearrange and get tighter and the wire shrinks...he also explained at the critical temperature the metal no longer would attract a magnet...rapid cooling or quenching the metal would '''freeze" the molecules in the tight arrangement. slowly reheating the metal would allow the molecules to rearrange and the temperature and time of reheat would determine how many would rearrange. .. This is the process a blacksmith uses to temper a piece of tool steel. heat it to a dull cherry red...dunk it in oil to cool it... buff it ...then reheat and watch the rainbow colors... the color determines the hardness for the completed tool. heating springs. sway bars etc.. leaves part of the steel in different molecular states and the results determins how it reacts


By not cooling your welds the heat from the area around the weld lets the metal cool slow enouth for the molecular structure return to the original arrangement. I have never tried to use a propane or soft Oxy-acety flame to let the weld cool slower.

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Old 01-04-2017, 04:01 PM
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You can wait until the metal cools on its own if you have all day or weeks to weld a few inches or use an air blower to speed things up it does NOT cool the metal fast enough to warp anything. Give it a try on some scrap and see for yourself I've been doing it for years and like I said I can weld a patch dead in the middle of a hood or roof without walking away or stopping until its done, I have to its how I make the majority of my living. As your practicing try doing 2-3 hot tacks and blowing air over it. We all have our ways, this is just my way. Im not saying anybody is wrong or right just try a few different ways and see what works for you.
Theres a lot of ways to warp the metal, the most common way I see people doing is having any stress in the joint before hitting it with a weld. Like the two pieces aren't tight together (wavey) and you use a screwdriver or something to push on the wavey metal to close up the gap. It'll start to warp as soon as the weld hits it.
Grinding the welds and getting them too hot is another common way to warp metal. Its easy to do with a grinding disc or flap wheel, especially if the PSI is set to high, another reason to grind Welds with the stones and grind with the disc after using the stone and the weld is almost flush. BTW the finer the grinding disc the easier it'll be to warp the metal don't use 80 use 36grit or 40 if you cant find 36 nothing finer than 40.
I seen a lot of guys completely destroy a car just stripping paint with a grinding disc and warping the heck out of it, they heat up metal FAST and the finer the grit the faster they do it.


This is a great post. U hit on a. Inch of bD practices that I do. I'm still not sure I agree with you on using the stone as opposed to a flap wheel, but like I said this morning, you've said enough to make me get some and give em a try! I can't wait to see if all these little things added up make a large difference for me.


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Old 01-04-2017, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by timothale View Post
I posted this back in 2008. I don't know the alloy content of weld wire but it has enough carbon to make it stiff enough to feed and not tangle in your gun-liner etc. ....



In my metalurgy class the professor did a demo heating a small dia. spring steel wire (I think about .030 )...He stretched a 10 ft piece in the front of the class ...He had the wire connected in series with a 110 volt light bulb with a light switch...When he turned the switch on the light came on and as the curremt continued to flow thru the spring wire it heated up and as it heated up and got hot it expanded and started to sag. then as it got to a dull red color it started to shrink and the wire tightened up. he then turned off the switch and said if he left it on it would have melted. He explained that when the metal wire got to the critical temperature the molecules rearrange and get tighter and the wire shrinks...he also explained at the critical temperature the metal no longer would attract a magnet...rapid cooling or quenching the metal would '''freeze" the molecules in the tight arrangement. slowly reheating the metal would allow the molecules to rearrange and the temperature and time of reheat would determine how many would rearrange. .. This is the process a blacksmith uses to temper a piece of tool steel. heat it to a dull cherry red...dunk it in oil to cool it... buff it ...then reheat and watch the rainbow colors... the color determines the hardness for the completed tool. heating springs. sway bars etc.. leaves part of the steel in different molecular states and the results determins how it reacts





By not cooling your welds the heat from the area around the weld lets the metal cool slow enouth for the molecular structure return to the original arrangement. I have never tried to use a propane or soft Oxy-acety flame to let the weld cool slower.


Never saw this in Toledo's engineering courses, but what a great visual. Thanks for sharing.


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Old 01-04-2017, 04:07 PM
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Deadbodyman, in regards to your choice of 3m sanding roloc doscs, do you use the green corps series? Can you give any more information- possibly part numbers- on the discs and stones? I'd love to pick some up on amazon tonight yet and give em a go this weekend.

From my initial searches on the internet the 3m stuff is priced way higher than what I use now. This is to be expected with their brand, and I'm fine with it IF their products do end up lasting longer and are better quality. That being said, do you have a good source to buy these expendable items from in bulk?


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Old 01-04-2017, 06:59 PM
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Just to give you an idea of how much stretch or shrink it takes to make a real mess of a flat panel.
Cut a strip of scrap sheet metal, about an inch wide and 12 inches long. Lay it on the bench, clamp dolly to the bench, slide the metal piece to firmly touch the dolly, then clamp another dolly, (or any chunk of metal with square side) to the table at the other end of the scrap. The scrap should be touching both dollys, with no wiggle room. Now, slip a razorblade between one end of the scrap and the block. How much deflection do you see? I'll wager that it's quite a bit.
When welding two sheet metal parts together with a butt weld (using a MIG). I usually start in the middle of the seam. I use no hood, or goggles. I use a gloved hand, to both steady the "stinger", and shield my eyes. The spot happens so fast that a hood, even one with a fancy auto darkening lens, is totally useless. The spot is done before you can say "ZAP". Then move about 6", "ZAP", 6" the other side of first spot, "ZAP", then back 6" further, "ZAP", keep jumping, and zapping, untill you reach both ends.
Then, come back to the middle between your 6" zaps, and zap again, continue, zapping, untill you have zapped the entire seam, with (what appears to be) a continuous weld. Then grind with a stone, some to smooth it out some. Inspect for pinholes, and missed zaps. go back and fill the pinholes, then grind just nearly flush with stone, and finish up with roloc disc of about 36 grit. Bear in mind, that the glove I use is only the left one (I'm right handed) The hand pulling the trigger is bare. And the glove is a good quality thick welding glove, not a Kidd tig glove.
When the welder is set properly for the wire used, and thickness of metal, the zap takes about as long as it takes to say "zap". And you will get good penetration, and the weld will require very little grinding.
I use .030 wire. It's a good all around size. works for sheet, as well as frames. Actually, anything from 20 guage to about 1/2". But you have to set the heat, and feed properly. I use 75%/25%. unless I'm welding an alloy that I don't want to add any extra carbon to, then it's 100% Argon.
Now gas welding is a whole 'nother ball of wax. It's procedure is similar to the TIG process, but with differences. You can weld with no filler rod, but, the welded seam will be thinner than the base metal, so just enough filler needs to be used to bring the seam back to the proper thickness, and no more. (in a perfect world) I usually start by making some tacks with a slightly carburizing flame, and no filler. Then come back using a similar process (jumping around) as the MIG, but welding about 1/2", then dollying as needed, and moving on. (A torch stand is handy, and easy enough to make) It's a slower process, but with practice, will make you a better welder.
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Old 01-04-2017, 07:30 PM
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St3gamefarm, do u hammer and dolly each zapped tack weld, as needed, or do u get ur fit so good and keep ur heat so low that u don't dolly?


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Old 01-04-2017, 07:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
You can wait until the metal cools on its own if you have all day or weeks to weld a few inches or use an air blower to speed things up it does NOT cool the metal fast enough to warp anything. Give it a try on some scrap and see for yourself I've been doing it for years and like I said I can weld a patch dead in the middle of a hood or roof without walking away or stopping until its done, I have to its how I make the majority of my living. As your practicing try doing 2-3 hot tacks and blowing air over it. We all have our ways, this is just my way. Im not saying anybody is wrong or right just try a few different ways and see what works for you.
Theres a lot of ways to warp the metal, the most common way I see people doing is having any stress in the joint before hitting it with a weld. Like the two pieces aren't tight together (wavey) and you use a screwdriver or something to push on the wavey metal to close up the gap. It'll start to warp as soon as the weld hits it.
Grinding the welds and getting them too hot is another common way to warp metal. Its easy to do with a grinding disc or flap wheel, especially if the PSI is set to high, another reason to grind Welds with the stones and grind with the disc after using the stone and the weld is almost flush. BTW the finer the grinding disc the easier it'll be to warp the metal don't use 80 use 36grit or 40 if you cant find 36 nothing finer than 40.
I seen a lot of guys completely destroy a car just stripping paint with a grinding disc and warping the heck out of it, they heat up metal FAST and the finer the grit the faster they do it.
using air is how I learned. Later I learned it's better to just let it cool down naturally. Not an issue with time if you plan for it and have enough areas to weld. The only time I use air is if I let it naturally cool off a little bit. I will skip around to the most random areas, never sitting still in one area. It's worth it to me as it's just saving time on filler or metal working for polish. Another thing to consider for the OP is tacking it in and further planishing. It helps a lot. In metal shaping it's pretty important.
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Old 01-05-2017, 06:03 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by st3gamefarm View Post
Just to give you an idea of how much stretch or shrink it takes to make a real mess of a flat panel.
Cut a strip of scrap sheet metal, about an inch wide and 12 inches long. Lay it on the bench, clamp dolly to the bench, slide the metal piece to firmly touch the dolly, then clamp another dolly, (or any chunk of metal with square side) to the table at the other end of the scrap. The scrap should be touching both dollys, with no wiggle room. Now, slip a razorblade between one end of the scrap and the block. How much deflection do you see? I'll wager that it's quite a bit.
When welding two sheet metal parts together with a butt weld (using a MIG). I usually start in the middle of the seam. I use no hood, or goggles. I use a gloved hand, to both steady the "stinger", and shield my eyes. The spot happens so fast that a hood, even one with a fancy auto darkening lens, is totally useless. The spot is done before you can say "ZAP". Then move about 6", "ZAP", 6" the other side of first spot, "ZAP", then back 6" further, "ZAP", keep jumping, and zapping, untill you reach both ends.
Then, come back to the middle between your 6" zaps, and zap again, continue, zapping, untill you have zapped the entire seam, with (what appears to be) a continuous weld. Then grind with a stone, some to smooth it out some. Inspect for pinholes, and missed zaps. go back and fill the pinholes, then grind just nearly flush with stone, and finish up with roloc disc of about 36 grit. Bear in mind, that the glove I use is only the left one (I'm right handed) The hand pulling the trigger is bare. And the glove is a good quality thick welding glove, not a Kidd tig glove.
When the welder is set properly for the wire used, and thickness of metal, the zap takes about as long as it takes to say "zap". And you will get good penetration, and the weld will require very little grinding.
I use .030 wire. It's a good all around size. works for sheet, as well as frames. Actually, anything from 20 guage to about 1/2". But you have to set the heat, and feed properly. I use 75%/25%. unless I'm welding an alloy that I don't want to add any extra carbon to, then it's 100% Argon.
Now gas welding is a whole 'nother ball of wax. It's procedure is similar to the TIG process, but with differences. You can weld with no filler rod, but, the welded seam will be thinner than the base metal, so just enough filler needs to be used to bring the seam back to the proper thickness, and no more. (in a perfect world) I usually start by making some tacks with a slightly carburizing flame, and no filler. Then come back using a similar process (jumping around) as the MIG, but welding about 1/2", then dollying as needed, and moving on. (A torch stand is handy, and easy enough to make) It's a slower process, but with practice, will make you a better welder.
WOW, It sounds like you mig weld sheet metal like I do but I've never admitted in public (until now) I didn't use a helmet when welding sheetmetal, haven't in years, it only comes out when I do the thicker stuff like unibody frame rails and full frames when you can run a bead.
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Old 01-05-2017, 06:29 AM
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Quote:
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St3gamefarm, do u hammer and dolly each zapped tack weld, as needed, or do u get ur fit so good and keep ur heat so low that u don't dolly?


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Keep in mind You cant hammer and dolly until BOTH sides are ground flush. whether they are tacked or a bead. It is a lot easier to do if they are just tacked, ground and dollied as you go. That's if you can get at the back side to grind. When you figure where to put the seam you should keep this in mind. also putting your seams near body lines, curved areas are a good places because those are the strongest spots and cut down your chances of getting any warpage.
Your seam placement matters a lot too.
Lets not forget the flanged joint for the less experienced guys.
Its also an important joint to learn even on the cosmetic metal Its useful and stronger joint and it'll reduced your chances of warping drastically. Anything structural needs to be flanged like rockers and roofs where they join to the 1/4's and pillars patches in the roof skin anywhere else are OK to butt joint that's cosmetic
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Old 01-05-2017, 10:47 AM
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When you talk about the flange joint, you're talking about those flanges made with those air flange makers a guy can pick up at harbor freight, right?


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Old 01-05-2017, 07:57 PM
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the harbor freight ones need tinkering. They don't go deep enough to leave 18 G flush, maybe 20G but not 18G, even if you bend the flange back straight afterwards. I have used a cut off wheel and filed the head clean to get deeper steps. The steps are good for certain situations but not on arches. Making the step flattens arch that go side to side. Sure they help with warpage but they create issues themselves. Always wear a welding helmet. Auto darkening helmets work great and if you Tig weld get a cheater lens. You can see everything with them.
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Old 01-06-2017, 05:41 AM
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When you talk about the flange joint, you're talking about those flanges made with those air flange makers a guy can pick up at harbor freight, right?


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Yes, but, although HF has a cheap one that will get you started there are better ones that work much better. All of them work better on straight seams like door bottoms and 1/4 panels its just how they are designed. For round seams you'll need rollers like those on a bead roller.
1st pic shows the seam just before putting the roof in place 2nd shows the seam with the roof down and in place. The original seam (about 3" lower) would have been the best spot but the donor roofs seam was rotted out. A tree fell on this one
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Old 01-06-2017, 06:15 AM
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Quote:
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St3gamefarm, do u hammer and dolly each zapped tack weld, as needed, or do u get ur fit so good and keep ur heat so low that u don't dolly?


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Good question. Myself, I don't hammer and dolly unless I warp something an even then only if I can get behind it. Were getting into more expensive tools here but what I usually do is pull out the warped spots with a stud welder and shrink as needed to stop any oil caning, all from the outside. I try NOT to use filler but in the real world where making money is important too , you cant double your time by making things perfect because you make half the money for perfect so out comes the filler. The REAL nice stuff we are showing is on on OUR own projects where we can spend an unlimited amount of time getting it just right and money isn't a part of the equation
All you guys starting out have to remember most of us offering tips have been doing this for many years so we don't need much filler and we can do it quick. Don't expect to do any kind of patch work and NOT have to use filler. All of us pro's, every single one of us used a LOT of bondo on our patches when we started out to so don't think your doing something wrong if it don't come out as nice as what we are doing. It takes time to master.

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