Got a chance to buy 454 or 472 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:23 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 149
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Got a chance to buy 454 or 472

I have a chance to buy a 1994 tho 454 that came out of a one ton truck for 500 bucks complete from intake to pan or a 1970 472 with th400 tranny for 600 bucks. Also complete. This would be for my 1969 c10 eventually.
Which way would be the better route to go?
Street truck wanting more power

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:29 PM
poncho62's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Last wiki edit: Streetbeasts links
Last journal entry: 77 Ford
Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 18,212
Wiki Edits: 5

Thanks: 74
Thanked 769 Times in 580 Posts
I take it the 472 is a Cadillac engine. Being a 1970 with higher compression, it is going to have more HP than the 90s 454 in stock form. It is also a real torque monster.
Parts wise, you are going to have an easier time with the 454.
Personally, I would go for the 472 in a brick of a truck. Probably going to have to make mounts.
__________________
I wonder if common sense will ever make a comeback?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to poncho62 For This Useful Post:
lmsport (01-15-2020)
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2020, 06:46 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 149
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Yes Cadillac
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2020, 07:09 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Zephyrhills, Florida, USA
Age: 77
Posts: 17,063
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 1,966
Thanked 2,871 Times in 2,146 Posts
Valve reversion into the seats will likely occur on unleaded pump gas. The caddy was designed to run on leaded.

Here's the skinny...... When you weld, you must have clean surfaces, free of foreign material. Auto makers didn't want clean surfaces between the valve and the seat, they wanted a dirty joint so that the valve would not micro-weld itself to the seat every time it seated. So the fuel distillers added a material known as Tetraethyl Lead to the fuel, which dirtied-up the seat and prevented micro-welding to take place. This was back when the seat was an integral part of the head casting, not a hard seat that was machined into place and this is what the 472 seats were until 1972, when the factory began installing hard seats to contend with unleaded fuel. So, without cutting the heads and installing hard seats, you are very likely to experience valve reversion. Some fellows say it ain't no bit deal to run integral cast iron seats on unleaded fuel and other fellows say the the amount of micro-welding that will take place will allow the vaives to micro-weld and tear off little pieces of the valve seat every time the valve seats and dig down into the heads until the motor won't want to run. So, that's the choice you have to make if you opt for the Caddy.

I just love explaining this stuff.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2020, 10:07 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Grand Rapids, MI
Posts: 2,172
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 224
Thanked 456 Times in 371 Posts
I have a 68 472 with 72k collecting dust currently. The valves are only a small reason why I have yet to run it.

Cadillac engines do not like to rev. 3500 is about the safe limit that you want to push them with stock parts.
You can run something like a 3.42 rear in the truck but your loosing out on some low end power.

So you can start throwing parts at the engine but what you will quickly find out is that Cadillac stuff cost 2 to 3 times what Chevy stuff does. To add to that the people that do buy the aftermarket stuff hang onto it so your less likely to find something for a caddy at a swap meet cheap.

Unless you like playing with points your going to need to re curve the distributor to have HEI. Something that has become much more common in the last few years but you need to consider the cost upfront. Then your talking an aluminum intake and taking some 454 headers and welding new flanges onto them bending the one port so it matches the Cadillac heads. Oh and do not forget about the timing chain. This cheap engine just grew a parts list that exceeded a grand.

Then we move onto the heads. OK I have had a 70 and a 71 500 and I ran both of those on unleaded without much concern on regular gas. But that was basically because they were "trail" engines and 1/2 the time the things were running on the fenders with the engines sucking air instead of oil. They were fun while they lasted. But if I wanted a street cadiliac engine I would invest some cash into some aftermarket heads. As mentioned your rpm and the valves are limited in stock form.
But your realistically talking about some $2500 to $4500 heads then you need to help oil them for another $500 plus.

Kind of see why the 472 is still in the barn?



A 454 on the other hand is a 454. Parts are cheap and everywhere. Heads range but you can find them at swap meets. I am one of the few guys who will tell you to run peanuts and polish those babies up. They were designed for a truck and work great in a truck. They make great torque and with very little work can rev to 4500rpm without concern.

Short(er) version. For $2000 you can have one fun 454 that has a good amount of swap meet parts and swap meet aftermarket heads. Or for the same $2000 you can have a stock 472 with aluminum intake, timing chain, and hei. The 472 will still slap the 454 around on power. But the 454 will beat the Cadillac on longevity. Potentially the 454(468) could beat the Cadillac on power depending on who you know and what deals you get on parts.

OR
You could start looking around for a 8100. About 1 or 2 times a year I see a truck with a busted transmission or frame that has a 180-220k 8100 going for $1500ish for the entire truck. This is not a light or small engine lets just call it 800lbs wet. But the thing will bolt up to that th400. You flash the pcm and your good to go in stock form. Bam fuel injection baby. Torque yea it has torque 450ft lbs which is easily increased without tearing into the engine to far. If you want a low cost big block the 8100 is a good move. By buying the entire truck you also get a list of parts to sell. If you can find a 3500 then you get your hands on some of the one ton stuff like the axles and rims which are worth a good amount by them selfs.


8100 info;


For parts availability and swap meet stuff a 5.3 or 6.0 is going to crush that 8100. They are everywhere and while they wont touch the torque you can play with gearing as well as several other ways to increase the power of a 5.3 or 6.0 to run circles around a big block.

Honestly if you even consider a duramax I would find a entire truck and just put the c10 body onto the duramax frame.


72 c10 duramax frame swap
https://67-72chevytrucks.com/vboard/...d.php?t=542647


Overall a 5.3 is going to make good power and have great potential. Your getting stuck on power numbers and need to think of the entire drive train. A 5.3 is going to bolt up to that 400 and is going to be an almost drop in deal with very few headaches if kept in stock form. if you decide you want to make more power later there is a thread or a couple threads on anything you can think of out there with the headaches already done for you.

The 472 still sits in the shed. I am running a 5.3 in my k10 squarebody with sm465 and probally a second 5.3 in my 94 1500 with nv3500 after that is finished.

It has taken me 20 years. But I finally have room to store engines and parts. In the past I have given away engines like a 350(Buick) and (2)225 dauntless, 392 scout, 302 v-6, and a host of others. Just having to loose one to make room for another. That 472 has remained over the years. But I don't see a need for using it any time soon and will probably sell the thing later on just due to the cost to run it today.


Between the 472 or 454 I would run the 454. But if I came across a 8100 I would pick that. The 5.3 is going to be a drop in deal and won't require a new front suspension. But if you want a big block the 454 is what I would run.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to cerial For This Useful Post:
chasracer (01-15-2020), lmsport (01-15-2020), techinspector1 (01-15-2020)
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2020, 11:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 43
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 2
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
You seem to making a lot of posts with random ideas that sort of be in the line of making a fat pick up go fast? Several good ideas are thrown out there.
Do you have any idea what you really want? Big engine or boost equal easy torque at lower rpm levels. Big engine with boost will spit out your corporate diff like it was sour milk.

All you have to do is reach into your pockets and pull out some money. Its just math. Start with the heads and flow numbers. Find the heads that suit you. Figure out how big of a short block you need and if its boosted or Naturally aspirated.
If you have trouble with the math it looks like Techinspector1 is very good at math.

good luck with w/e you build. How about a 509 stroker to be different? (Mark I)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to Moosecountry For This Useful Post:
techinspector1 (01-15-2020)
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:30 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Posts: 149
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 6 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moosecountry View Post
You seem to making a lot of posts with random ideas that sort of be in the line of making a fat pick up go fast? Several good ideas are thrown out there.
Do you have any idea what you really want? Big engine or boost equal easy torque at lower rpm levels. Big engine with boost will spit out your corporate diff like it was sour milk.

All you have to do is reach into your pockets and pull out some money. Its just math. Start with the heads and flow numbers. Find the heads that suit you. Figure out how big of a short block you need and if its boosted or Naturally aspirated.
If you have trouble with the math it looks like Techinspector1 is very good at math.

good luck with w/e you build. How about a 509 stroker to be different? (Mark I)
I know I'm all over the place, just covering all my options I guess.i will get it nailed down when I get this house remodel done.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-15-2020, 06:28 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Posts: 1
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I say do the 454. Tell me where to find the 472. Honest,,I'd like to have another. 25 years ago I built a couple caddys,,one I put in a 81 Monte carlo,,another in my 85 chevy 1/2 ton truck to pull the race car trailer with. This was before there was a 'kit' for everything...I had to figure out what swapped and how to make stuff fit. The truck swap requires either a eldorado oilpan or a 76-78sh 425 pan and pick-up. To mount it I hung it in bay,,used a tape measure and degree finder on intake and welded plates to cross member that the motor mounts went into. I used stock long tail 400 and cut my drive shaft and welded on the matching TH400 yoke. Relocated the crossmember a little,,used the manifolds and a muffler shop did the rest there. Mild cam from comp cams,,stiffer taller sbc valve springs,,a dozen other odds/ends. It got 16-17mpg with 2.73(or 3.08)? gear,,pulled the race car trailer effortlessly up the hills in PA getting that mileage. 4000 rpm is about max in the mild 472/500,,,with real big springs and 230* cam in the monte I went to 4500rpm,,but it was roaring and scary. A Caddy is a torque motor. What I did to make both work was far beyond the average guy without spending a fortune. I even made my own headers for the monte! Welder/torches/tuning skills/engine building/fabricating/ ...most people want simple and easy "kits' with instructions and part numbers...AND cheap prices,,,.a caddy swap isn't that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:21 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.