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Old 03-29-2018, 05:20 PM
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Holley 670 VS Street Avenger Hesitation Fix

Tried all the commonly recommended fixes on the internet for this carb on my sons 289, you name it I tried it, secondary stop, jets from 65/68-74/80, all of the accel cams, shooters from 31-39, fuel pressure and float height, initial timing...you name it...I tried it.

I swapped on a QFT billet block from my 750DP and the hesitation is gone, these blocks are only $70 on Summit plus a handful of jets to outfit the block and voila...runs perfectly now.

Obviously the restrictions on the stock block are too small and you could spend a lot of time drilling them out before you found the right combo not to mention possibly ruin it by going to far where you could just buy the QFT block and tune by changing jets since every restriction in them is removable (I used the stock QFT restrictors for a 750DP)

I've banged my head on this carb for quite some time now before finally replacing the block, cleaning the original block (including pulling emulsion tubes) which changed nothing so I know it was not plugged.

I will post the stock QFT jet restriction sizes later, need to lean down the main jets since that was the only thing that seemed to work somewhat...going big on the mains didn't completely eliminate the issue and ended up fouling plugs so obviously it was just a crutch that partially masked the problem.

Save the headache boys and girls, swap out that lean metering block and enjoy the carb the way it was meant to run. Someone needs to hang a Holley engineer for not recommending this as a fix, this is a mild build 289 motor with only a 262 Lunati cam in it so its not some radical cammed monster...it idles at 600rpm with only a slight lope.

I spent a lot of time diagnosing this carb and trying every fix in the book, pains me that many people that have this carb never really get it working properly or mask it with enormous jetting.

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Old 03-29-2018, 07:51 PM
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I have a long history with the 670 street avenger carbs and out of the box they spec really lean and are ok for a stock build to a small rv cam and only a better rear jet size would be good for it in that case but if you get into a cam size of about [email protected] 50 or more and a 110 lsa or tighter then that carb will have to have the idle circuit re calibrated and that involves drilling the idle feed restrictors bigger.

I had really bad luck with several out of the box that left me chasing my tail and one was in such a horrible condition that I could start up my engine fine and let it warm up and then after about 5 minutes of run time for some reason my engine would no longer stay running and would have to always keep giving it gas just to keep it going. Never did find out what was wrong with it and spent several days chasing my tail as this was a brand new 350 sbc engine build and never thought it to be the carb as it was brand new.

Finally put a spare rebuilt holley on and it ran fine sent it back and got a new street avenger and it ran fine but with the usual off idle hesitation like many have. Pump cams and shooters never did help much and like 4jaw abobe stated nothing would fix it. I was really green at the time with holley's and I was running a decent sized street cam of 222/230 @ 50 112 lsa and 5??/5?? lift and tried everything and eventually learned of tuning the idle circuit on these carbs.

I eventually bought just like 4 jaw a set of quick fuel billet blocks and wow what a difference on how things ran. I eventually sold the one I had years ago but a few years back I got a used one off of ebay and since that first time I have learned a lot of how to really fine tune these bad boys without having to break the bank.

For just a little time and patience I drilled out the idle feed restrictors and then tapped the metering blocks 6/32 and got small boxes of brass allen 6/32 x 3/16 screws from mcmaster.com and I spent less then $30 overall in tools and a tap and a drill bit gauge set.

By taking your time and screwing in just a few turns at a time checking the depth of your tap to make sure you don't go to far you can then have changeable idle feed restrictors but some don't like to do that and its not hard but does take a little bit of time.

By taking my street avenger and increasing my idle feed restrictor size from .028 up to .031 got rid of a lot of off idle issues and I also did a size of changing my jets out to 67/73 split and changed my high speed air bleeds to .028 that allowed for my wide open throttle to not be so rich and also having the primary and secondary jet sizes more standard like the 6 to 10 jet size difference since there is no power valve in the secondary side.


It is not recommended to change any air bleeds unless you truly know you way around a holley along with the idle feed restricors as well as just minor changes can make it way rich or way lean and also if your not careful you can ruin your carb.

The quick fuel billet metering blocks come with a .031 idle feed restrictor size installed and they also come with .028 as well and you can get all different sizes and you don't have to drill and tap. 4jaw got it right and if anyone else reads this hopefully they can get much needed help.

They quick fuel blocks also have .028 emulsion well ports and a .028 siphon break

That is on a quick fuel billet metering block kit you can buy. Most quick fuel carbs regardless of being a vacuum secondary or double pumper usually all across the board come with a .033 to .034 on the idle feed restrictor size on the 600 through 750 range carbs on the most common ones they sell.

The street avenger carbs are really nice once you do some modifications to them but many folks don't like to do so and the best bang these days for a holley carb with all the bells and whistles and at an even cheaper price are the quick fuel brawler carbs which have changeable everything on them from air bleeds to restrictors on the metering blocks etc.


The 670 street avenger out of box specs are as follow

65 primary jet 68 secondary
.031 shooter and orange pump cam

.078 primary idle air bleed .048 secondary idle air bleed (2 corner idle)
.025 high speed air bleed primary and secondary

Primary metering block IFR .028 and Power valve restriction .046
6.5 power valve installed
.028 emulsion ports and .028 siphon bleeds

Secondary metering block IFR .031 and .028 emulsion ports and .028 siphon bleeds

Secondary color spring silver but comes with a yellow and a black spring as well with the quick change

1.28 primary venturi and 1.31 secondary venturi

1 9/16 base plate (4 corner idle ultra series has 1 11/16)

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Old 03-29-2018, 09:14 PM
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I got this carb nearly brand new because of its reputation and figured I never seen a Holley I couldn't fix even if it needed throttle shaft bushings...it took me awhile to find the simple easy fix only because I was prepared to start drilling restrictions etc.

Best part is the QFT block is infinitely tuneable so its an inexpensive HP upgrade that happens to fix the issue.

This cam is pretty mild and is only a Lunati 256/262 cam so its just at that magic [email protected]" mark which I thought for sure this lean calibration carb could handle...nope.

Voodoo Hydraulic Flat Tappet Cam - Ford 351W & 302 H.O.256/262 - Lunati Power

So don't tell anyone else until we can all buy up these nearly new worthless $100 Holleys that don't work.

Thanks for posting up those specs Eric, they are difficult to find.
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Old 04-20-2018, 12:12 AM
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Just a quick update on the QFT blocks available on Summit, we ordered one to replace the 3 hole emulsion tube jet version from my Proform 750 DP. These blocks are not the same as the QFT versions have 5 holes and the Proform have 3 emulsion tube jets per side.

The QFT 5 emulsion tube jet version comes equipped with a blank jet in the #3 position and the rest are open, it also comes equipped with all the jets you need to get an engine running as per the included instruction sheet.

So although they look similar in photos they are not the same, we will be using the QFT block for our tuning going forward....its also anodized red instead of the Proform version which is black if that matters to you.

I will take some pics of the two blocks so everyone can see the differences so you can decide what is a better version to use with your setup, my guess is they are both very adaptable to whatever you need if you have the time and patience to tune them.

Going to sticky this thread to the top as I have received a lot of PM's regarding this issue and how we fixed it, seems there are a lot of guys limping around with these carbs and just living with the hesitation. Judging from the number of posts you will find around the net on different forums its not an isolated issue and I'll bet there are hundreds of rodders who just gave up on them or bought another carb.
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Old 04-20-2018, 01:00 PM
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I don't have the particular blocks of the quick fuel ones that have the 5 emulsion ports on each side but I do have the 3 port ones but I can tell you on the five port ones you mentioned if you use all five ports it will really be a bear to tune and a very rich hard to tune fuel curve across the board and in many instances at least for street use from my research you will want to use as just a starting point and how many have tuned there's to work is the following chart below and that is a good starting point to use and go on from there.

Emulsion port 1 .028
Emulsion port 2 blocked off
Emulsion port 3 .028
Emulsion port 4 blocked off
Emulsion port 5 .028

That is where some people have used that in order to get there carbs workable and not be too much for a street build and also is advice from really advanced carb tuners as well. I can't give to much more information then that as I have never tuned by messing with emulsion ports before and will never do so for my basic street builds as the three port has been more then enough.
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Old 04-26-2018, 06:45 PM
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Just a quick FYI on the 34-4 QFT block, it has no ported vacuum pipe which is a big issue for swapping this onto Holley main bodies that have that feature which is most of them.

The only real alternative is the Proform universal block which we used to originally solve this issue as it came on my Proform 750DP stock, below is the link to Summit for this block.

https://www.summitracing.com/int/par...166c/overview/

Another thing to note is this block comes in purple from third party suppliers but can be purchased from Procomp in black directly I believe if color matters to you.

Another thing to be careful is gasket selection as the correct one must be used from metering block to main body as some gaskets expose the ported vacuum hole to throttle bore which results in a huge fuel leak (ask me how I found out). Best course of action is match your original Holley gasket exactly to a new one before installing.
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Old 04-27-2018, 10:28 AM
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I have read about that before about some folks using the wrong gasket with that metering block that does not have the time port made into it and some folks used the original style holley gasket that has the hole in it for the time port passage and by using it on the block that does not have that function it made a massive fuel leak like you stated and I was wondering if you have the time to post a photo of the correct gasket and the wrong gasket that you can put side by side so for future comparison so people know what to look for.

I would do it if I had one but I don't have one on hand. Thanks 4jaw for posting the information you posted I do believe the block with the five emulsion ports originally was a design on the holley hp towers as the hp towers don't have the provision for a time port either. I have a holley hp and it does not have the itme port made into the tower itself.
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Old 04-27-2018, 05:14 PM
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I'll post a pic of the QFT block, we just installed the Proform block back so I won't have a side by side comparison. Not having a ported vacuum source is a big issue for us since the 289 is tuned for it and we tried direct vacuum along with limiting vac advance to allow it and it just doesn't work with our setup regardless of what you may read about doing it...I've never had any luck running non-ported vac advance on a performance engine with high compression.

Currently we have all the emulsion jets sized at 0.028" with a jet installed in each location but we will likely block every second hole as Eric suggested as that seems to be a common theme for using these blocks.

Here is a link to another thread where there is an old school chart showing how jetting these holes affect mixture along with Mains tuning at rpm which can be useful for those tuning their carbs with an AFR gauge which is pretty much the best/only way to do things these days with any kind of accuracy.

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/raci....php?f=31&t=42
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Old 04-28-2018, 08:40 AM
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Thanks for posting the link and also on your setup as all info can be gold for many who have similar setups. Below is the metering block kits I get from quick fuel and even though it says double pumper and four corner idle these are the same exact same blocks in all there kits regardless if separate or a kit except the 5 emulsion port ones.

I use these blocks on vacuum secondary and double pumper both and also on 2 or 4 corner idle circuit carbs and they work on everything I have used. The only difference on the 2 corner secondary block compared to a 4 corner block is quick fuel removes the idle mixture screws and installs brass allen screws with of all things red loctite and that is how they do there kits to where it comes with a longer fuel tube for the side hung fuel blowls or if you get the metering block it self.

I got the kit that was for a 2 corner vacuum secondary that came with a longer fuel transfer tube for my old 600 vacuum secondary holley and I compared it one day to a 4 corner idle secondary quick fuel block and noticed they are the same block and that is when I noticed it had brass allen screws in it and I proceeded to take them out and I tried them on a 4 corner idle carb I also had and they work fine.

If you don't want to install brass allen screws by putting them on a 2 corner idle circuit you can just take the idle mixture screws and turn them in all the way and then back out about a 1/8 of a turn and that was per quick fuel themselves and I read about others doing it that way as well.Below is the proper ones that have the timed port setup and the kits all contain the same blocks just you can get them setup for whether you have such as a double pumper or a vacuum secondary with center hung bowls or if using the side hung bowls the one kit comes with a longer transfer tube.

These blocks work awesome and I have always had excellent results with them on holley 1850/80457 600 vacuum secondary along with the street avenger carbs and also holley double pumpers. These blocks have the normal 3 emulsion port holes and they are .028 and you can't change them unless you drill the holes bigger to a certain size but they are already threaded to where you can use screw in emulsion restrictors but I have never messed with that part as that is way advanced without a o2 gauge to monitor things better.

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-34-105qft

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-34-133qft

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-34-66qft

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-34-8qft

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/qft-34-111qft
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Old 04-28-2018, 10:43 AM
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Excellent info Eric, thank you!
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Old 04-28-2018, 11:02 AM
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For those on a budget, for about 28 bucks you can use a primary metering block from a 600 1850. You don't get the built in adjustability but many don't need that. Also I prefer the low idle feed position.
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Old 04-29-2018, 01:26 AM
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Thanks Tommy, the more info we can gather here regarding solving this issue cheaply the better.

I will say the Proform block works perfectly and normal jetting rules apply now with the typical Holley two jet size stagger between primarys and secondarys working as usual.

Where we were initially doing a 74/78 split just to get some driveability out of this carb on a mild 289 we are now down to a 68/70 or 70/72 split with no hesitation and excellent response and even fuel mileage. The leaner jetting setup would work better for street/daily and the richer 70/72 for the track.

The typical fix was going way up from the stock 65/68 by at least five jet sizes which didn't solve the hesitation completely but at least it would work to be able to drive without stalling...of course plugs were black and fouled and no amount/combination of pump cams and shooters would fix it regardless of jetting.

One thing that is rarely mentioned by most tuners is you can tell how lean the jetting is by how far the idle screws need to be turned out to idle clean, with a 65/68 split we were nearly 3 turns out on the Proform block, 68/70 we were 1.75 turns out and 70/72 we were 1-1.25 turns out which is ideal for power.

We may try a 69/71 split just to see if the happy middle ground is better for all around use but with 68/70 the fuel consumption is actually better than the 4.0L V6 originally installed in this 1998 Ranger and thats with a C4 and no overdrive with a 3.55:1 axle and locker. Not to mention another 200HP on tap which transforms the vehicle into an axle hop machine all the way through 2nd gear.

Holley carbs can be very frustrating to many people due to the infinite tuning possibilities and myriad types of carbs they have produced over the years, I for one would never buy a 650DP Quad replacement carb due to experience in the past as it had lean primarys but now with these blocks available I might give them a try again. These were notorious carbs back in the day for never working right out of the box.

I think with a Proform block on the primary and the QFT block on the secondary you could likely fix any Holley carb that has issues as long as the main body isn't worn out with normal tuning today. It was always a bit of a black art to dial in these old carbs and unless you had a bunch of carbs to toss parts back and forth on to try and see what works you were pretty much out of luck.

Hence why most people always recommended a 3310 style in VS or DP for any performance build because at least these were a known quantity and responded correctly when tuning. I know if you watch the Engine Masters Series they stick to the Holley Ultra HP series of carbs on their dyno builds just because they work and tune easily using normal methods...and sponsorship of course.

Another issue I face as a moderator here on HR.com is members PM'ing on where to start with jetting, the obvious is go back to stock and go from there. However we have enough experience in our membership to create a database of Holley carb specs members ended up at to get the desired potential out of their combos, if nothing else it could be a place to start and look at other peoples setups to see what worked for other people.

I intend to create another sticky where members can post their engine combos and carb setup specs as I have never seen anything like this on the web anywhere, being the first and best place to find Hotrodding info on the web has always been what this place is about and this will be next level, this will extend to other carb styles and next Mega/Micro Squirt tables as I have time to organize.

Stay tuned and keep your great advice coming, thank you.
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Old 04-29-2018, 08:02 AM
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Almost all newerholley metering blocks don't have the idle feed restrictor in the lower position anymore as I recently bought 5 secondary metering blocks for my vacuum secondary holley carbs and they all where in the upper position instead of the lower but all you have to do is rip the upper ones out with a little patience with a drill bit and being careful not to go into far and you can just tap the bottom spot with a 6/32 tap and use brass allen screws and bam you can adjust your idle feed restrictor size all you want as that is what I did when I needed to change a restrictor size.

The one thing I can't figure out how to custom is using a primary block on the secondary side on a four corner idle carb that does not have the power valve recess in the main body as you would have to use a power valve plug but the power valve plug would never clear as the secondary side is not made for one. The only thing I could think of is using brass allen screws to plug the pvcr and then take a power valve plug and somehow grind it flat enough to be flat enough against the main body and make some sort of a grove in it to use a screw driver or something to turn it to tighten it.

On my cast blocks I just tap them and get brass allen screws from mcmaster.com for pretty cheap. The very first time I did it I was successful and it is not hard to do at all.On my holley vacuum secondary and double pumper 600/650 carbs I have my jetting at the traditional sizing of having the secondary jetting at least 6 to ten sizes bigger then the primary since there is no secondary power valve and to keep it from being to lean at wide open throttle for the most part. I currently have my quick fuel/proform 650 double pumper at 68/75 split. In stock trim on a holley 4777 650 double pumper it comes with 67/73 jetting and on my 670 street avengers I had in the past and still do sitting at the side I use a same jetting split as that has always worked best for me as the lean small split of the jetting on the street avenger carbs has never worked well on my performance builds with cam sizes in the [email protected] and up range as the secondary jetting would be to lean and in the case of someone is running a holley 600 vacuum secondary with the metering plate it equals about a 65 to 68 jet size.

Another thing that many are not aware of on the holley 670 street avengers is they are not very truthful on there advertisement on the flow rate. The holley 670 street avenger zinc silver body one and the non ultra all aluminum ones use the same main body as the 600 holley vacuum secondary and same exact size air bleeds and all things being the same they only use the 1 9/16 size base plate which would make them actually a 600 and not a higher rated 650 plus cfm. Now on the holley ultra street avenger 670 which is all billet metering blocks and base plate they put it with the bigger 1 11/16 size base plate and all things else are the same. On holley's universal 650 vacuum secondary 4150 carb it has the bigger 1 11/16 size base plate as well.

The holley 670 ultra street avenger would be a true 650 plus rated cfm carb and I read somewhere on a forum that a guy talked to a holley tech guy about that and they said that since holley sells the cheaper 670 street avengers more then any other street avenger carb they over rate its flow rate so people don't over carb there engines as the ultra line is pretty expensive and they sell the cast aluminum and zinc ones more then the others. If you get holley's secondary metering block kit for the 600 vacuum secondary 1850/80457 models it is the same exact same metering block they use on the 2 corner idle holley 670 street avenger carbs.Get a quick change lid for the vacuum pod and a set of center hung fuel bowls and you have the same identical carb just a different part number stamped on the tower.

I have had both in hand to measure everything on them and checked them out as I worked on a few and customized some things for a few guys over the years.There still good carbs but for some reason they have that famous hesitation issue and it all boils down to the idle circuit being so lean. For the most part the pump shot circuit has been very close for my builds. Just a slight enrichment on the primary metering block idle feed restrictor and a bigger jetting on the secondary side and a slight leaning out on the high speed air bleeds from .025 stock out of box size to .029 and the power valve channel restrictor size left at .045 has worked wonders all the way around for me. For a stock small block with a very mild rv type cam or smaller it at times can work as is with no issues but it depends on a few things such as compression and if using it on a truck and towing etc.

Last edited by eric32; 04-29-2018 at 08:29 AM.
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TommyK View Post
For those on a budget, for about 28 bucks you can use a primary metering block from a 600 1850. You don't get the built in adjustability but many don't need that. Also I prefer the low idle feed position.
Hey TommyK -

Got a source for the $28 block??....cheapest I can find Holley listing is $58
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Old 05-19-2018, 02:45 PM
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Here you go this is where I get mine at for a primary block and then I drill and tap it for brass allen screws. $26.99 before shipping

HOLLEY METERING BLOCK 600 CFM
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