horsepower differances between holleys and ededbrocks - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 05-26-2019, 11:29 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 62
Posts: 12,338
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 874
Thanked 1,464 Times in 1,354 Posts
55 Tony post you time slips with the mph and 60' times and et. We can tell you a lot. Running rich is better than lean usually

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to vinniekq2 For This Useful Post:
36 sedan (05-27-2019)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 06:33 AM
55 Tony's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2018
Location: Cocke County, TN
Posts: 1,355
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 180
Thanked 227 Times in 201 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
55 Tony post you time slips with the mph and 60' times and et. We can tell you a lot. Running rich is better than lean usually

I'll start a new thread on that with more info.
__________________
Young enough to learn ... too old to remember.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 55 Tony For This Useful Post:
vinniekq2 (05-27-2019)
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 08:26 AM
36 sedan's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: American Canyon, CA
Posts: 1,154
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 682
Thanked 339 Times in 272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
Running rich is better than lean usually
X2. Best horsepower and torque is always on the rich side and often overlooked.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 12:03 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,269
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 368
Thanked 1,441 Times in 1,136 Posts
In running dyno tests over the years what I observe is that the classic Holley and its aftermarket clones using the secndary metering block rather than plate, the Edlebrock/Carter, and the Qjet will produce almost identical torque and power curves on the same engine. The difference between them is not more than 2 to 4 measures of pound feet or horsepower. The torque curve moves around a little with the Qjet brining in best torque earlier than the Edlebrock/Carter next and the Holley later. The same trend shows on brake specific fuel consumption per horsepower at least till the secondaries come on then everybody tends to even up. The opening of secondaries tends to show a lean drop in AFR and torque and power, this is momentary. For the Edlebrock/Carter this is pretty consistent as no enrichment circuit exists to cover this, there are several models of Qjet out there that provide a vacuum assisted shot caused by a fuel bleed just under the air valve. The Holley and clones with a double pumper and mechanical secondaries cover this but the models with vacuum secondaries do not. In the bigger picture this is just a spot your passing through with most carbs and it can be tuned down if not out by slowing the initial secondary opening rate or running the primary main a little rich. For the Edlebrock/Carter and Qjet this can be done by dinking around with the metering rod diameter ratios and the vacuum spring. For the non double pumper Holley this can be covered with either the dual range power valve or bringing the power valve on a little sooner. I think Holley has left a lot of tunng opportunity on the table by not making the dual power valve in many more ranges.

Those Holley style carbs using a secondary metering plate are always are behind the metering block versions in total power. This can be considerable with numbers being 15 to 20 behind. It can be blended out but it takes a lot of sweat over a hot engine to do it.

As far as mixture ratios go especially for a boosted motor be that air under pressure or laughing gas, richer mixtures provide in cylinder cooling as the excess fuel changes state from a liquid (no matter how finely divided) to a true gas. This state change absorbs a lot of heat, therefore, provides a lot of mixture cooling which is insurance against detonation and preignition which under boosted conditions destroys engines faster than you can react to the sound, by the time you back off that damage is already done. So seeing an AFR when your foot is on the floor in the range of 11.5 to 10.8 is way safer for the pistons and the engine will be developing as close to max as you can get while keeping the internal parts conncted to each other. You can run it leaner and mitigate the risk with meth/water injection for the same purpose of chilling the temp peaks under the detonation limit. If your in search of winnng races you have to experiment with the limits that trade protection against ET or speed. For the street cruiser then working within the published limits is sufficient unless you have enough financial backing to pay the costs that come with experimenting on the edges. Remember Hunter S. Thompson's admonishment, paraphrased; 'that only those who went over the edge know where the limit is'.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to BogiesAnnex1 For This Useful Post:
36 sedan (05-27-2019)
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 01:37 PM
36 sedan's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: American Canyon, CA
Posts: 1,154
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 682
Thanked 339 Times in 272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
The opening of secondaries tends to show a lean drop in AFR and torque and power, this is momentary. For the Edlebrock/Carter this is pretty consistent as no enrichment circuit exists to cover this

Bogie
Actually, Edelbrock AVS and Thunder series both have a secondary enrichment circuit.

It is located under the Secondary Air Valve, in the secondary boosters. The circuit operates very similar to the primary transition circuit and adds fuel as the secondaries start to open, before and as the secondary air valve opens. The secondary enrichment circuit is tunable for the advanced carb guys, as it's a little more difficult to tune (similar to the primary idle/transition circuit's jets and air bleeds).

And, the AVS series weighted Secondary Air Valve is adjustable too (much like the Thunder series), once you know the tricks.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Edelbrock AVS discharge.jpg
Views:	33
Size:	605.7 KB
ID:	443707  
Attached Files
File Type: pdf EDELBROCK PERFORMER CARBURETOR AVS (ADVANCED TUNING) .pdf (1.30 MB, 6 views)
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 07:56 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,269
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 368
Thanked 1,441 Times in 1,136 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 36 sedan View Post
Actually, Edelbrock AVS and Thunder series both have a secondary enrichment circuit.

It is located under the Secondary Air Valve, in the secondary boosters. The circuit operates very similar to the primary transition circuit and adds fuel as the secondaries start to open, before and as the secondary air valve opens. The secondary enrichment circuit is tunable for the advanced carb guys, as it's a little more difficult to tune (similar to the primary idle/transition circuit's jets and air bleeds).

And, the AVS series weighted Secondary Air Valve is adjustable too (much like the Thunder series), once you know the tricks.
Your right my brain had another fart, loosing my quick draw abilites that's twice or thrice in the past couple weeks.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 08:22 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 13,269
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 368
Thanked 1,441 Times in 1,136 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 36 sedan View Post
Actually, Edelbrock AVS and Thunder series both have a secondary enrichment circuit.

It is located under the Secondary Air Valve, in the secondary boosters. The circuit operates very similar to the primary transition circuit and adds fuel as the secondaries start to open, before and as the secondary air valve opens. The secondary enrichment circuit is tunable for the advanced carb guys, as it's a little more difficult to tune (similar to the primary idle/transition circuit's jets and air bleeds).

And, the AVS series weighted Secondary Air Valve is adjustable too (much like the Thunder series), once you know the tricks.
Your right my brain had another fart, loosing my quick draw abilites that's twice or thrice in the past couple weeks.

I'm becoming my dad who in the middle of another conversation would say the neighbor was a spy after his jet engine secrets. First time that happened I said, "dad your jet engine secrets are 50 years old, nobody wants them any more". He would continue on like that wasnt said till suddenly he'd pick up the conversation we were having right where he left off before this side trip. He seemed to have no recollection of his digression.

I run an AVS Edlebrock Thunder on FrankenMouse it took a couple days of jets, rods and their springs, and some adjustments to float level, air valve spring, and choke to get it settled in to the tall gearing 3.08 and 4 speed OD tranny but once adjusted it runs extremely well through the entire RPM range. A little hungrier than the fuel injection it replaces in ordinary use, certainly more fussy with cold start and idle on the oversize, unheated, high rise GMPP intake feeding ported heads. But once in motion after a minute it is smooth and strong from idle to WOT. I was runnng another high mileage test on the last tank, it delivered 25 in mixed city and frewway driving but you have to work and think like a high miler. It's a lot more fun to drive when only getting 15 mpg.


Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to BogiesAnnex1 For This Useful Post:
36 sedan (05-28-2019)
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 05-27-2019, 10:09 PM
36 sedan's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2016
Location: American Canyon, CA
Posts: 1,154
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 682
Thanked 339 Times in 272 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
I'm becoming my dad who in the middle of another conversation would say the neighbor was a spy after his jet engine secrets.
Hmmmmm, that might explain some of the looks I've been getting lately! Lol!

Getting old is catching up with us! But it's been a great ride and I'm hoping it will last a good while longer.

I have a pair of Thunders on my mouse, like you said, once you get them dialed in they run like a charm.

Gas smileage? I can't keep my foot out of it long enough to tell!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2019, 01:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Syracuse, NY
Posts: 4,899
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 4,296
Thanked 967 Times in 783 Posts
Not germane to the blower side of the question; but i'll be playing around with an AVS-2 annular primary booster edelbrock in the not too dist. future, and Im REALLY looking forward to it.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to AutoGear For This Useful Post:
36 sedan (05-28-2019)
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 05-28-2019, 02:09 PM
MJS69's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Wyoming
Age: 50
Posts: 176
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts
we just put an AVS 2 (1905)on our 69 GTO, big improvement in drivability and power over the edelbrock 1406 we had on it
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to MJS69 For This Useful Post:
36 sedan (05-28-2019), AutoGear (05-29-2019)

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:05 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2020 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.