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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:17 PM
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Not trying to beat a dead horse, rather just putting up a pic of a stock Mustang 2/Pinto front end mounted in a 32 Ford....including the "sheetmetal" OEM X-member.



I know I used the wrong word "junk" when I referred to the aftermarket X-members; I should have said "poorly designed".

If you think about what happens to the front end in the pic when that wheel drops into a big pothole, most of the impact is transferred to the lower ball joint. That impact force would try to shove the balljoint and outer part of the control arm towards the rear. Not really straight back, because the balljoint is now trying to pull the lower arm away from the frame. So the actual force would be in an arc, going slightly inwards like a pendulum. You can see that Ford put the solid steel strut aimed right at the lower joint and it is basically in line with that "arched" force.

Most of the older guys here recall that rodders swapped in "stock" M2 frontends before the aftermarket X-members came out. The problem was that the stock setup is not "pretty to look at". The aftermarket guys cleaned up the look but stuck with a narrow X-member like the stock one but never seemed to match the strength of the original Ford strut design, and how important that strut was to that skinny X-member. That original design is like a super wide A-frame with excellent mounting points.

My critque is, that all of the nasty forces that come with real world conditions now lie in a very concentrated area of the lower aftermarkt X-member...because their arms mount only to that one small area.

It does not matter if half the rods at the Turkey Run have these..."it don't make it right".

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 11-15-2007, 02:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by F&J
Not trying to beat a dead horse, rather just putting up a pic of a stock Mustang 2/Pinto front end mounted in a 32 Ford....including the "sheetmetal" OEM X-member.

It does not matter if half the rods at the Turkey Run have these..."it don't make it right".
This whole thread is very funny. Does anyone know what caused the crash in the original post? It would take one hell of a pot hole to completely tear off a control arm. The original factory M11 crossmember is nothing more than very thin stamped sheet metal. I've installed dozens of aftermarket crossmembers from several companies, but I refuse to use an original one. The best thing that happened is when the aftermarket stepped in and made them much thicker and stronger. Take a good look at one, they are overbuilt for good reason. I've installed them with and with out strut rods. One has been on the road for 8 years with over 40 thousand miles with out struts.
Bob

Last edited by Bob C; 11-15-2007 at 03:55 PM.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 01:44 AM
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Whatever the cause of this accident was, up to now its all been speculation.
Looking at the front end A does not seem man enough to resist a force at C amplified by the arm at B, which is a lever.
That is why the original setups called for reinforcement at D be it to attached to the chassis in front or behind.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 01:47 AM
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I must say this is a very informative thread for us first time builders. Not to scare us off, but simply to read how other guys think and explain.

To bad we don't have a close up photo of the ripped off A-arm including the coilover. That would probably have explained som more.
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Old 11-16-2007, 02:27 AM
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Looking at this elargement, the frame is peeled back suggesting he hit something substantial. The crossmember was not attached to anything up front so that did not pull the frame back.
Speculation.

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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 02:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dugg
Hey Rossco, greetings from sunny Colorado.

What is the cost of this inspection and who pays for it?

Can you get a second opinion? I suppose you can if you pay and if your sticker hasn't expired.

Can an inspector "ground" the auto? That is to say, can the inspector prevent the auto from returning to the road if found or perceived faulty?

Helicopters have loads of time life parts. If you don't replace the items when due, your insurance will not cover you if you have an accident. That's final.
No insurance, no fly, no fly, no income.

Thanks,

Doug
The last thing I want to do here is start a world war.
This half year inspection is no big deal and it certainly is not "Draconian" as has been suggested. It is known as a W.O.F (warrant of fitness).
The total inspection takes around twenty minutes and costs the vehicle's owner around forty bucks. It is at the inspectors discretion whether the vehicle passes or fails. He has of course, minimum tolerances and standards which are his yard stick. If the vehicle fails it's initial test, the owner has thirty days to rectify the fault and return the repaired vehicle for a re-test. Within this time frame the re-test is free of charge. Outside of this time frame and you need to pay for another test. So in other words, you pay your forty bucks and the inspector's sole duty is to examine the vehicle and he either "passes" it, or "fails" it. If it is not up to standard you have thirty days to get it roadworthy and re-tested. Otherwise pay another forty bucks and go through the procedure again.

Now lets stop a minute and look at this from another angle.

You guys are all exceptionally mechanically minded and know your vehicles down to the last minute detail. But in real terms over the total population you are the MINORITY. By far the majority do not have your outstanding abilities nor do they care to have. However most of this group will get some sort of regular servicing done to their vehicles but this usually only consists of lubes and tire rotations. Under normal circumstances it would take an unusual noise, or for the engine to go "off song" before they got the vehicle examined in a more detailed manner. But again usually only to troubleshoot the complaint.
Within this group there are a relatively high proportion who will just neglect their cars regardless. Whether it is because of financial restraints or just plain ignorance, people will just drive on. I have met many different individuals on numerous occasions, and I'm sure you have too, who don't even know the basic stuff like, correct tire pressure, topping up a battery to the right level, dip stick levels, etc,etc,etc. These are the people I have to share the road with. Honestly, if they wish to let their cars fall to that standard, and they are killed as a result, then I for one won't shed a tear. But if their same disregard takes out an innocent family as well, then that is a different ball game altogether. If that same vehicle is deemed unroadworthy at the time of testing then that scenario is therefore eliminated.
There are the guys of course who will try and cheat the system. Like borrow their buddies tires to get them through, but really they are only cheating themselves.
This isn't unique to road going vehicles. As previously mentioned, aircraft are appraised according to hours operated.
And you as person get regular checkups from your G.P. to preserve your standard. But again there are those that don't even do that and put off seeing their doc even when they know they are not well and often a little
"niggle" can turn into something deadly if left untreated. Cars are no different.
Just a note to finish. If a car is tested as a "pass" or "roadworthy" and is involved in an accident caused by a mechanical defect, then the inspector will be the one held culpable.
This is not about setting a standard. Far from it. It is about setting a "minimum" standard.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 03:13 AM
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Over here in Spain the yearly inspection is;
Doors/Seatbelts, look see, a guy tugging a seatbelt is hardly a "test".
Shaved doors like mine get the yearly discussion, Im supposed to have door handles next January, despite 8 years without.
Lighting/horn, if they all work.
Exhaust, nothing much, monoxide, cat cars get a separate test.
Shocks, they shake the car, graphic display shows efficiency.
Brakes, you have to brake against a resistance and it shows on a dial, the efficiency.
Lastly suspension, first the front wheels then the rear are driven onto moveable plates and while you hold the brakes on they rotate, the guy is underneath looking.
And I can tell you those bloody plates really twist the car about, I reckon if you aint got problems before youll have em after.
At least if there is any malfunction they do invite you into the pit to see it first hand.
We have 15 days to get anything fixed without paying again for a re test.

Ive never asked here what the responsibilty part is, I know in the UK a test is "valid" only at the time of testing, no comeback.
I do remember a guy in the UK while driving from a test, lost his front wheel,
some test !!
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:04 AM
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rossco,

Not to deny the importance of the inspections you describe, but but far more people get killed in this country becuase of drunk drivers and cell phones than cracked suspension parts.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:19 AM
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If you want to complain to a manufacturer, try Total Performance. This is from my T, S/N 1317 in 1991. I am aware of two others and I believe they are still making their steering this way. The U join is a Speedway race car version due to the needed size to fit under the floorboards
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 08:38 AM
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WOW, Dave, is that even a real automotive u-joint?
I thought that Speedway was selling those Sweet brand joints, at least those have needle bearings and a proper trunnion....That looks like something that should be in the socket drawer of a toolbox I know that on 3 cars with TCI frames, I have had to fix the rear 4 bar mount, because it is only a 3/16" plate with the mounts welded to it in a manner that lets the plate see-saw back and forth until it rips at the edges.

Complaining to anyone at TCI is an exercise in futility...I've called Sal, Evan and Shelly at TCI and told them of this fix I had to do, they deny there is anything wrong with their design.

Rossco, my point in calling those measures "Draconian" was to say that if you implemented a biannual inspection herein America, it would turn into something less than desireable for guys like us who modify thier cars, as just like the smogcheck program, the standards are not performance based, but the standards are set by a government agency, which typically doesn't allow any deviation from the stock configuration, unless the modified part has been tested and approved by another government agency. (ever see a CARB EO sticker?)


Which may or may not be a good thing. Seems like every time our government implements another regulatory inspection program , it's good for a few people, like the guys selling inspection equipment, or inspector training schools, but makes it harder for the individual to keep their stuff in compliance.




Maybe it works in NZ. Your government doesn't seem to have any problem making regulatory decisions that will work for the people,(you seem to like the idea of biannual inspections),.. come live in America for a while and then tell us that everything OUR government does makes sense..


MTBE, anyone?


Later, mikey
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Last edited by powerrodsmike; 11-16-2007 at 08:48 AM.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 09:05 AM
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I'm late to this thread but I reiterate my passion to publicize the BAD DESIGN of ANY MII front end that includes strut rod eliminators. They are all time bombs that are bound to go off sooner or later. May not happen in your life time but drive those cars long enough and they will ALL eventually fail. The problem isn't the thickness of the steel, the toughness of the bolts, the severity of an impact or two. The problem is fatigue. There is simply too much bending stress on that lower A-arm mounting point. Heights is the absolute worst design with their stress riser adjacent to the thru bolt but this thread shows all 'good' designed units are vulnerable too. An accumulation of enough 'small' (none of which over-stress the unit to ultimate failure) stresses and cracks start. Once these start, more fatigue loading will quickly propagate them to ultimate catastrophic failure. It is basic physics and properties of material. I have seen photos of half a dozen failures like this and they are all the same, regardless of the manufacturer. All are strut rod eliminator designs and all have the lower a-arm snapped off the x-member. And don't give me anecdotal testimonials that you have driven your car a gazillion miles and it hasn't broken yet or you have installed a million Joe-Bloe x-members and have had no failures. All that tells me is the chamber with the bullet hasn't rolled to the firing position in your revolver yet. Any competent mechanical engineer can show you this design is a mathematical surety to fail.

Unless your rod is a trailer queen PLEASE add strut rods to ALL your driven MII front ends. Preferably design the strut rod brackets to bolt to the frame using rubber donuts but if you must weld, weld the bracket to a 3/8" plate then weld the plate to the frame.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2007, 09:07 AM
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Mikey makes some very valid points. Here in Kalifornia the government can seize a vehicle that has been modified for speed and go as far as crushing it if parts are illegally obtained, that could be stolen, not legal in the state for smog reasons, no receipts, etc. Take a new Mustang, modify it for speed using illegal chips, air systems, etc and you're screwed when it's time to sell or smog check comes in. That applys to anything built after 1976, which explains why I have no use for any cars built after 1972, the last year a muscle car was actually a muscle car. We're straying way off topic here.
My buddy ues nothing but Street Rod engineering, out of Lake Havaseau, Az. Check out his parts and let me know what you think, they appear to be very well designed and stronger than most, thicker metal, gussetting, welding inide and out. Dan
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:11 AM
 
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Regarding steering joints........

I'm looking at Speedway's catalog #250, page 40 listing u-joints.

Those joints listed in the left hand column show an illustration of what I guess is a coupler of sorts. This might be the item that is shown as split in two in Ireland's post and photos.

Notice Speedway makes no reference to a specific brand or country of manufacture. I believe most of Speedway's stuff is Cheap Chinese Communist Conscripted Child Cruelty Conflicting Capitalism Crap.

In the right column of page 40 shows a forged steering joint under a logo of Safety Racing. When I Google Safety Racing, I find no such company or products. Another Speedway house brand? And, an attempt to suggest this product is not made in China?

If this u-joint is forged, it must mean all the joints in the left column are not forged. What are they then? Cast? Who knows? Speedway knows and apparently Total Performance knows.

Isn't it interesting that Total Performance buys from Speedway which is halfway across the country when Borgeson U-joints are made 40 miles away from Total Performance. Total must be more interested in cost than quality.
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:18 AM
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Well I being "old fashioned" according to some have strut rods on my Willys. some have said I need to get rid of them. Not right now, I don't think. Yeah they were a PIA to get lined up and there is somewhat limited travel movement but hey, this isn't a sand buggy 4-5 inches total travel is plenty for a non off road streetrod.

By the way someone mentioned how hard it was to rip the front suspension off. We have a sand buggy about 850 pounds wet rolling with driver and 150 hp MC motor. It gets 0-60 VERY QUICKLY to say the least and will go 110 mph on a trail that a good Grizzly 4 wheeler has a tough time going 45 on. This little buggy has a full moly cage like a mini sprint car. The front suspension is 1 1/4 120 wall moly tube fully triangulated , no monkey business strutless stuff. This IFS front end has 14 inches travel and fully shocked with the best $$$ can buy. Well I, in my 65 yr old mind was just going too dam fast and hit a puddle going around 65 into a 25 mph corner and hit an 8 inch tree head on on the suspension. It ripped the whole one corner right off. Busted 2 5/8 chrome moly rod ends off in tension , not bending, bent one arm 90 deg like it was put in a press brake and ripped the 5/8 bolts right thru the mount tabs plus tore one rod end and bung out of the arm tube about an inch past the weld. No welds were broken or torn I might add. The rod ends are the top of the line high $$$ ones... or were. My glasses flew about 30 feet down the trail and I had good size bruises on both shoulders, around my waist and yikes between my legs from the 5 point seat belts. I had a down insulated jacket and 2 heavy sweatshirts on under the belts. This was at night and dead quiet. The noise was incredible even with the helmut on.

So it's easy to see that triple the weight and reduce the speed to 30 mph and you can easily rip off both a-arms on one side even with strut rods on a direct hit. There will be one &%$# of an impact and you better be well belted in.

WEAR THOSE SEAT BELTS. And make sure they are mounted properly.
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Old 11-16-2007, 10:22 AM
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My mistake in companies

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dugg
Regarding steering joints........

I'm looking at Speedway's catalog #250, page 40 listing u-joints.

Those joints listed in the left hand column show an illustration of what I guess is a coupler of sorts. This might be the item that is shown as split in two in Ireland's post and photos.

Notice Speedway makes no reference to a specific brand or country of manufacture. I believe most of Speedway's stuff is Cheap Chinese Communist Conscripted Child Cruelty Conflicting Capitalism Crap.

In the right column of page 40 shows a forged steering joint under a logo of Safety Racing. When I Google Safety Racing, I find no such company or products. Another Speedway house brand? And, an attempt to suggest this product is not made in China?

If this u-joint is forged, it must mean all the joints in the left column are not forged. What are they then? Cast? Who knows? Speedway knows and apparently Total Performance knows.

Isn't it interesting that Total Performance buys from Speedway which is halfway across the country when Borgeson U-joints are made 40 miles away from Total Performance. Total must be more interested in cost than quality.
Believe whatever you want, but I'll post a couple of facts.
TCI is Total Cost Involved, owned by Ed Moss, they are located in Ontario California.
Total Performance, owned by Mickey Lauria, is in Conneticut.

Two different, totally,(pun), unrelated, companies.

edit in. My mistake, I thought Dave was posting a pic of his TCI stuff. But the forged u joint in the picture in my speedway catalog looks nothing like the one in Daves picture.

I've used the Sweet Mfg U joints before, and I have one on my desk as I am posting this.. They are a lightweight U joint made in Kalamazoo , Michigan, and they use 4 Torrington needle bearings in the yokes (IIRC, Torrington owns Borgeson),and a standard design trunnion.

If Speedway says it is a forging, I believe them.








They are not cast chinese crap.

Later, mikey
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Last edited by powerrodsmike; 11-16-2007 at 10:34 AM.
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