"a little over" turns into $4500 over for paint job - Page 6 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 12:00 AM
 
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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 12:03 AM
 
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Heres how I see it as a shop owner. I posted a little earlier, but here I go again. If someone gives you a set price on an old car on a job that size, run for your life. One of four things will happen.
Best case, there will be unforseen work, he sticks to his price, does a beautifull job, and files for bankrupcy and goes out of business before you can refer a friend. Best case that is, unless yours is the car in the shop when the baliff locks the doors.
There will be unforeseen work, he will stick to his price and cut corners, you end up with ugly car.
The guy is inexperienced and thinks it is possible to meet the price, you end up with ugly car because he doesn't know what he is doing.
The guy has calculated in all possible unforeseen things, and unless your car turns out to be the total bucket he assumes it is under all the paint,you just got hosed on the price.
bottom line: A good paintjob takes what it takes. You cannot anticipate rusty bolts, patch panels that don't fit, fiberglass matting under the undercoat in the fenderwell, a car that has wiring that tries to melt down the car within 10 minutes of pulling into the shop, and every other wierd thing that any experienced guy on this site has seen.
i love it when guys say it takes 1/2 hour to tape off stripes, or 3 hours to replace floorboards. that stuff only works on t.v. where they don't count man hours. 3 guys taping for 1/2 hour = 1.5 hours, not 1/2 hour. It takes more than 1/2 hour to get the stuff together to do a good stripe job in the real world. [ source the stripe, or materials to paint it, take delivery, pay, keep records, get misc materials together, clean the mess afterwards.]
back on subject, the shop needs to keep you informed. seems to me that was the only error on the shops side here.
As for the customer, ask for an accurate state of account on a weekly basis, so you don't get surprized. The shop should do that anyway, but as was mentioned earlier, many guys wo do good work don't function well in the office. You need to keep them accountable. If someone doesn't want to update you, maybe you should re-analize your choice of shop. It will get ugly somewhere along the line.
Thanks for listening I feel better now.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 12:09 AM
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Hoss,
I guarantee those stripes took longer than 10 hr. I have spent weeks on stripes.

Troy
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 12:17 AM
 
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lines

i am no pro doing stripes but let me tell you this ,my buddy Hanko is a pro at it . ive seen him stripe up cars in 10-20 minutes.
hes been a painter for over 25 years most of it custom.

when im talking about taping up lines ,i do say 1/2 hour ,im not talking of the stripes being completed in 1/2 hour ,just taping.
when youre experienced in something ,you can be the best at it
and as for the lines i see on this car. i see nothing custom
just a 1/4 tapeline dividing the white for another 1/4 line all the center is painted white
nothing custom or hard to do
most shop owners are paying the employee to do the hard work .
while they are taking care of the harder work like sitting on a desk and doing payroll and estimates,
i bet it its a bigger headache being a owner ,but lets not take all the credit here .

Last edited by hoss; 01-06-2005 at 01:08 AM.
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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 01:11 AM
 
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Actually in my shop I'm one of the guys doing the fun stuff in the back while an employe gets paid to stress out in the office. Like I said alot of good craftsmen arent good behind a desk. I personally want to suck on a shotgun if I spend a whole day in the office. It looks like your buddy does nice work, but no offence, I think you need a new watch. Were down to 10 minutes now? Be serious.
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  #81 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 01:22 AM
 
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come on,10 minutes , yes how hard is it to lay 1 tape line . please share some pictures of your custom 10 hours of stripes work. ive seen good painters , von,dutch used to live near my house look it up online Santa Paula Ca, he was one of the best pinstripers EVER,if not the best ever.
what about bill hines ,he's also one of the best . i used to go to maywood Ca. to see his work .doing movie stars cars
im talking about the best of the best .painting candy red over a white base , Try it.

Last edited by hoss; 01-06-2005 at 01:28 AM.
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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 11:11 AM
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Hoss you have a lot to learn about stripes and graphics. It takes longer to lay them out in the right place than it does to paint them.

Show me someone that can layout and paint these and I will give them the best job they ever had.

Troy




Last edited by troy-curt; 01-06-2005 at 11:34 AM.
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 01-06-2005, 09:38 PM
 
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hey Troy
you and i know that there is more than just laying lines on the body to come out with something nice ,
and we also know that it was more than the paint job and graphics that won you those trophies."right"
your car has also been tricked out in different ways, engine,interior,undercarriage,paint detail etc. etc.

the patterns,graphics you have on your car are multi color, not single color like the ones we are referring to.
anybody can lay graphics, thats the way it all started,
and when you refer to me having to learn about laying graphics ,your'e right, because iv'e seen the best paintjobs out there with the ugliest graphics on them, and am willing to learn,
dont tell me you dont go to car shows and get ideas on paint schemes .im sure you seen graphics on a car before you layed them on your car,







hey troy im ready to start ,whats my salary

Last edited by hoss; 01-06-2005 at 09:38 PM.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 01-07-2005, 12:46 PM
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paying for quality workmanship

This has to be one of the best posts Ive seen and an excellent topic as well. Im going to give my opinion on this matter as I am contimplating on going into show quality paint work full time. First off the skills required to pull off a "top notch show quality paintjob" are extremly underestimated. I will give an example in my opinion which is a good "gauge" on the hours involved to pull it off. I like many others out there own my own home, and like many others would like to have it vinly sided. I called sears to come and take a look at it and give me a quoete. They had estimated a cost of about $20,000 to do the job (its a small square cottage with a detached 30 by 30 garage also square). He told me that a crew of about three could have it done in about a week, which I know is about right on. My problem with that is I know for a fact that the materials are no more than $1500-2000. Now I know that sears is always higher than everyone else but how many out there wouldnt think much of spending that kind of money to have it done. What are they making per hour verses the skills involved to pull it off. Im not in any way trying to demote the skills of a contracter, but in my opinion the workmanship does not have to be super flawless to turn out a real good job for the $20,000. Now with that being said, you take into account a bodyman working with hazerdous materials, breathing filler dust, dealing with the iso's involved I think that they are pretty underpaid. Now take this into account, and I know very,very many out there can relate to this is the time factor when you take your car to a shop and it just dies there. If you can find a guy that is known to turn out flawless workmanship and actually get it done in a timely manner, and stand firmly behind his work as well you can bet that guy is going to be buried with work. I was taught many years ago by my uncle who I consider to be an expert master bodyman. The problem I am facing right now is just this exact topic of "charging". I recently did a 56 T-bird (bodywork and paint only) for a customer. I quoted the job out @ $50 an hour X 200 hours to do the car plus another $1000-1200 for materials, well he said that price was to high and had another quote from a "bodyshop of $7500 with materials, also told him 200 hours to do the car. The car was going black to boot. The way I was taught is dont paint until the bodywork is "flawless". The customer told me if I was around $8000 with materials he would let me do it, I refused. A couple months later I was laid off from my full time job of 20 years (not a bodyshop). So I contacted him and took the job, $8000 grand is $8000. I did the job in 430 hours, 200 hours in just blocking alone. After all was said and done after the cost of materials I made about $17 an hour on the job. Bottom line I stood behind my word that I would do the job for $8000 no exceptions, but at the same time I wanted the car as flawless as I could possible get it for it to be known what kind of work I was capable of turning out. About 1 1/2 years later (car is all completly back together at this point) every spot on the car that had original leaded seams had blistered, to say the least I was literally sick to my stomach over this. I felt that it was not the customers fault and uit should be fixed at my exspense (learned the hard way about lead, althouth never having a problem with it in the past). I took the hit on the job to corect the problem, and to establish a flawless reputation for taking care of the customer. After all its hard enough to get some of these shops to do the job the first time out, never mind if they have to fix something that isnt right.My conclusion is this if your planning on going into this business the only way you will actually make money doing this (strictly high end show car paintwork) is you MUST charge by the hour period, no exceptions. Like many have said here before if you quote a job you are guarenteed to be way off, and thats not fair to the customer. But if your committed to turning out top shelf work then its not fair to you (the bodyman) to just take the hit, and you will go under as a result guarenteed. If you the customer can find a guy that stands behind top quality workmanship in my honest opinion it is worth the extra money it will end up costing you, if you want the very best you can have. Not everyone is going to spend $20,000 for a paint job, but there is someone that will. Anyway a lot of people have different opinions on this and I find it very interesting, and have gave this topic an extreme amount of thought. As to the guy who sarted this post with the camaro, I havent personally seen the car but if its what you say it is I dont think you did too bad on that one.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 01-09-2005, 09:01 PM
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Ripped OFF

I went back and read everything in this thread twice. I am of the belief that what you got was a pretty thorough restoration of an insurance damaged car for $8,500 parts and labor. Is that correct?
I do my own work on my own cars, and do some schlock used car lot paint jobs on the side. Working on cars is not my profession. I do not claim to do show quality work on other people's cars. I prefer to have them come with the car, do the labor, and I will spray it, and help disassemble and reassemble it for a few hundred bucks. I have the air tools to make the work go fairly quickly. I have an auto hoist, so I can lift the car up to get to the lower parts easier. It is unusual for most people to get away with fewer than 10 hours in their job. Some of them have to take a couple days to do the work, because they just collapse from fatigue. When they go buy the materials and find out that they have $500 in the economy brand of materials, and then put in this kind of work, and see the tools I have, they fully understand how a cheap decent paint job is going to start out a $2,500, plus what ever metal work needs to be done. Helping take the car apart, finding and helping repair the extra hidden work necessary has made few jobs leave my shop with less than $1,000 in my pocket. Never any fight, either.
I recently took the running 350 out of a terribly rusted truck that was a couple years older than the truck I use myself, that had a 305 (worthless piece of crap engine for a full sized truck). You would think that putting a small block in where a small block came out would be a snap. Oh wrong, oh Wrong. It ended up taking me a couple months, because I'd get so mad that I'd just walk away and leave it for a couple weeks. I used the pollution stuff and distributor from my 305 on the 350, so there were no hose or electronic battles.
From what I have read, I think that the way the shop conducted their business was incompetent, but I believe that you did pretty well for $8,500 for the job.
I am glad that I do not turn wrenches for a living, because I'd become slim and svelte, as I starve to death.
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 01-11-2005, 07:59 PM
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Getting a body shop guy to go against his/her quality of work is a lot like telling a fiddle player to only play half the notes, or an artist to use only certain colors on a painting. I am unable to do bodywork but I know one thing for certain "when your names on the can, you care about what's inside." Got to have a meeting of the minds, especially with body work.
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  #87 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2005, 10:41 AM
 
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New quarters / patches

Hi there! I really love the discussion on this thread.

To those of you who do body work for a living. . .
I have a 71 chevelle that has the Michigan rot in the rear quarters behind the wheel wells. So I have two quetsions.

1. Patches or new quarters
2. What should I expect to pay??


Any advice and help would be greatly appreciated!
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  #88 (permalink)  
Old 01-14-2005, 11:12 AM
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I don't know about your state but a licensed auto shop in Kalifornia MUST give you an itemized firm estimate of cost of any auto repair. Any change order MUST be itemized and signed by the customer. Without that, the customer does not have to pay for any cost over the original contract amount, regardless of the amount of extra work or cost.

Check with your state DMV and if you have a signed contract for much less than $8,000 with no signed supplemental, you may be eligible for a refund of the difference.
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Old 01-14-2005, 02:04 PM
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Small block guy:

If all you have is some minor rot in the bottoms of the quarters behind the wheel opening, and the rest of the quarter is sound, especially over the wheel opening and in front of the wheel opening, I'd opt for the patch panels, instead of a whole quarter, mainly for cost savings.
I do not recall if they are making repro quarters for your car, but cutting off a quarter and getting a new one lined up and welded into place correctly is a lot of work, (read a whole lot of money). Properly installing a patch panel is a bit of work, too, but not nearly what is involved in getting a replacement quarter to fit on a 30 or more year old car. Another advantage of a patch panel so low, is that you can live with what a somewhat less skilled technician does than with what would happen with a whole quarter.
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Old 01-23-2005, 10:04 PM
 
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Quote:
Originally posted by pzatchok
I'm sorry to say but I too think you paid a bit much.

But remember. I live in Ohio were things go a bit loose on the environmental laws. And I also do all my own work.

I don't think though he should have had more than 20 to 25 hours in that body. Even with replacing those parts. I've replaced a whole floor, both inner and outer rockers and one rear quarter on a car in less than 30 hours.

Sorry but I would really look into this one.

Maybe someone who does this professionally can come up with a better time estimate than me.
you dont undstand with a body shop time is different, its like being a contractor, i worked in one for several months before i quit due to not being paid, youll work a few hours on the car then take twice as long off away from it, a contractor(someone that builds houses and such) they will work for 4 hours then take 4 off, and not do anything till the next day, so that time is about right
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