Motor oil SAE grade question How much ZDDP do I need? - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Hotrodding Basics
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 04-14-2018, 03:35 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: At Speed
Age: 56
Posts: 2,906
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 291
Thanked 415 Times in 365 Posts
I'm always puzzled when the oil makers say that everything is backwards compatible but not forward compatible.

If you have an old Chevelle and want to change the ATF, that DexonVI is not the same as the stuff you put in it in 1982. Will it work? Probably.

The owners manual of your new car will make it very clear that only the oil rated for that engine should be used in that engine. So what if your car is 40 years old?

I use Mobil1 in my newish Chev truck because thats what GM says to use, I buy the high mileage version and have 150,000 miles on it with no engine issues ever.

All the racing engines I have built use Kendall-BradPenn-Penngrade oil and I've never seen an issue. One super late model engine, dry sump, 650hp, has been together for 15 years, I have re-ringed it 3 times when it gets about 2000 laps, the original coated bearings have been put back in it each time, they dont have a mark on them.

FWIW, You can still get SG rated oils in the motorcycle parts section.

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to lmsport For This Useful Post:
Husein-p (04-16-2018)
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 04-15-2018, 08:29 AM
johnsongrass1's Avatar
Race it, Don't rice it!
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbia, Mo
Age: 43
Posts: 6,888
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 99
Thanked 692 Times in 569 Posts
At my real job, the operators manual is printed BEFORE the machine is designed.
3 or 4 versions later, it might as well be a book of blank pages because it's outdated so quickly.

I think this type of thing pretty much sums it up across the engine oil industry. By the time you read it about it on the internet, that technology is already outdated by some degree. Stir in media, marketing, and human behaviors and you get a lot of BS. The trick is too weed the through the BS and get what you can out of it but don't lose sight of experience and critical thinking.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to johnsongrass1 For This Useful Post:
Husein-p (04-16-2018)
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 04-16-2018, 01:33 PM
Husein-p's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Iran
Posts: 237
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 267
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
i found mobile 1 oil in iran !!! but just 0w-40 and 5w-30

then i talked again with STP seller and he tell me that product not stp in future we will import stp because my storehouse is empty for stp

for v8 sbc and with muscle cam again must use zddp stp additive or not( if oil have 1200 PPM zddp) ?

for changing old oil how much miles must be run then changing oil ?
(what grade how much ?)

and for 4cylinder and 6 and 8 is different with one grade oil ?
for example with SL grade for L4 must change after 5k miles but for L6 and V8 same with L4 or sooner ?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 04-17-2018, 01:08 PM
Husein-p's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Iran
Posts: 237
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 267
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
???????????????
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2018, 07:40 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,302
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 168
Thanked 1,104 Times in 881 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Husein-p View Post
i found mobile 1 oil in iran !!! but just 0w-40 and 5w-30

then i talked again with STP seller and he tell me that product not stp in future we will import stp because my storehouse is empty for stp

for v8 sbc and with muscle cam again must use zddp stp additive or not( if oil have 1200 PPM zddp) ?

for changing old oil how much miles must be run then changing oil ?
(what grade how much ?)

and for 4cylinder and 6 and 8 is different with one grade oil ?
for example with SL grade for L4 must change after 5k miles but for L6 and V8 same with L4 or sooner ?
The additives like zinc and phosphate are consumables in that they in all or part get used up doing what they do from making a dry lube matrix with the cam and lifters to neutralizing acids that form from the water and chemistry of the blow by gasses. So there is a relationship to additive parts per million (ppm) and either oil change interval or replenishment of the additive. If we assume that at 1600 ppm in the good old days was good for 4000 miles then oil with less additive at 800 ppm should be changed at half that at 2000 miles. This assumes a linear function which may not be that simple as there are some reports that say below 800 ppm the effect of the additive is not there. So like a lithium battery's charge there may be a point where the utilization curve suddenly drops to zero as the concentration falls below a threshold.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2018, 10:32 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Woodstock
Posts: 1,454
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 55
Thanked 231 Times in 190 Posts
Just because the bottle says "FULL SYNTHETIC" that doesn't mean that the oil contained within is 100% synthetic, and I'm NOT talking about Synthetics vs. Synthetic blends.
The major oil sellers are ripping off people with the term "Full Synthetic". Full Synthetic does NOT mean 100% synthetic, again, I'm not talking about Synthetic Blends.

If the engine oil is not made from Group 4(Poly-alpha-olefin) or Group 5 oil base, it's NOT a 100% synthetic oil.
Group 3 oils are all cracked from hydrocarbons(dinosaur oil or natural gas), therefore are NOT 100% synthetic. There is a lot of propaganda out there stating that high quality synthetic oil is cracked from Natural gas, this is simply not true. This is merely repeated over and over in attempt to brainwash the public into believing the "Full Synthetic" semantics.
A big indicator between Full synthetics that are cracked from dinosaur oil and/or Natural Gas, but are really a quality conventional motor oil and 100% true Synthetic engine oil is the cost.
True 100% synthetic oils will double the price of an oil change, not just add $5-$10 to the cost.
When buying engine oil, I would look and all the Full Synthetics were only $10 more per gallon than the conventional oils. I think to myself, Wow, what a great deal, I'm gonna buy that Synthetic oil, its only $10 more. I consider myself an intelligent person, so I know I'm not the only one who has been duped.




Explained here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil#Full

Here is a straightforward article on the difference in the 5 types of lubrication, free of spin by the oil makers.
Understanding the Differences in Base Oil Groups

Wiki base oils
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_oil

IMO Wikipedia is fairly accurate as its seen by millions and point plus proof is usually required.

peace
Hog
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2018, 01:01 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,302
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 168
Thanked 1,104 Times in 881 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hogg View Post
Just because the bottle says "FULL SYNTHETIC" that doesn't mean that the oil contained within is 100% synthetic, and I'm NOT talking about Synthetics vs. Synthetic blends.
The major oil sellers are ripping off people with the term "Full Synthetic". Full Synthetic does NOT mean 100% synthetic, again, I'm not talking about Synthetic Blends.

If the engine oil is not made from Group 4(Poly-alpha-olefin) or Group 5 oil base, it's NOT a 100% synthetic oil.
Group 3 oils are all cracked from hydrocarbons(dinosaur oil or natural gas), therefore are NOT 100% synthetic. There is a lot of propaganda out there stating that high quality synthetic oil is cracked from Natural gas, this is simply not true. This is merely repeated over and over in attempt to brainwash the public into believing the "Full Synthetic" semantics.
A big indicator between Full synthetics that are cracked from dinosaur oil and/or Natural Gas, but are really a quality conventional motor oil and 100% true Synthetic engine oil is the cost.
True 100% synthetic oils will double the price of an oil change, not just add $5-$10 to the cost.
When buying engine oil, I would look and all the Full Synthetics were only $10 more per gallon than the conventional oils. I think to myself, Wow, what a great deal, I'm gonna buy that Synthetic oil, its only $10 more. I consider myself an intelligent person, so I know I'm not the only one who has been duped.




Explained here.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Synthetic_oil#Full

Here is a straightforward article on the difference in the 5 types of lubrication, free of spin by the oil makers.
Understanding the Differences in Base Oil Groups

Wiki base oils
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Base_oil

IMO Wikipedia is fairly accurate as its seen by millions and point plus proof is usually required.

peace
Hog
So true the buyer must always beware. Same thing with Organic stuff at the grocery or drug store, it the "Organic" fraction only needs to meet a moderate threshold before they can call it that, it doesn't have to come anywhere close to 100%.

Bogie
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2018, 01:09 PM
Husein-p's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Iran
Posts: 237
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 267
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
So there is a relationship to additive parts per million (ppm) and either oil change interval or replenishment of the additive. If we assume that at 1600 ppm in the good old days was good for 4000 miles then oil with less additive at 800 ppm should be changed at half that at 2000 miles. This assumes a linear function which may not be that simple as there are some reports that say below 800 ppm the effect of the additive is not there. So like a lithium battery's charge there may be a point where the utilization curve suddenly drops to zero as the concentration falls below a threshold.

Bogie
ok so you tell me period of changing oil depend on zdp additive contain
but for example SN grade oil have lower zdp lower than 800ppm
if i buy this oil with high cost but interval is lower than 2k miles is true ?
if yes when i buy sg oil i will have higher zdp additive and result is higher miles for interval change but lower cost

if i want to choose one of them definitely i choose sg grade not sn !!

and just zdp additive specific interval oil change or cylinder number is important ?
tnx
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2018, 04:28 PM
55_327's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 542
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 7
Thanked 107 Times in 92 Posts
Man, that GM bulletin is enlightening!

Have to say I've been running regular old 10W-30 "starburst" oil in a Chevy 350 I built in 2004 with no issues at all. The cam is an old school grind with moderate ramps, springs are Edelbrock stock replacements with around 90# on the seat, and I did use CompCams #159 break-in lube and broke-in the engine at 1800-2200 RPM for 20 minutes.

What can you tell us about the cam & valve springs? And is this a brand new engine, or has it been broken in?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 55_327 For This Useful Post:
Husein-p (04-20-2018)
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2018, 11:36 PM
4 Jaw Chuck's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Manitoba, Canada
Age: 51
Posts: 6,620
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 190
Thanked 574 Times in 425 Posts
I've edited the title of this thread and stickied it for others to look at before posting over and over again regarding the ZDDP issue.

You can argue who is right and who is wrong regarding levels of additives in the oils you purchase but you cannot argue with mfg testing that supports proper protection is achieved with any modern S rated oil available everywhere.

Please review the GM bulletin posted in this thread, it should answer any questions you have regarding ZDDP in your oil. Not happy with that, there are plenty of aftermarket additives you can add to make yourself happy....blend away.

Many additives like STP have additional high pressure components that are actually superior to ZDDP if you have a high lift cam and high pressure springs controlling your valve train. Just be aware flat tappet cams don't last forever and if your running a lot of pressure and high rpm no additive is going to change the law of physics, it was common knowledge back in the day a cam would go flat in less than 10 000 miles if you were on the bleeding edge of what was possible with a flat tappet cam no matter what oil you were using.

Today you can purchase micro hole lifters to help combat this issue, all the bad soft core cams are likely out of the system when mfg went to china and they went through their learning curve regarding heat treatment and lobe finishes.

As always the bet protection you can buy is regular oil changes to get micro contaminants out of the oil which act as lapping compound, most filters don't get anything below 10 microns and some don't get anything finer than 50 microns...that means extra fine lapping paste in your engine constantly being recirculated!

Don't believe everything you read, there are literally millions of cars out there running just fine because the owner has no idea his car has a flat tappet cam in it not to mention the millions of OHC engines with bucket over shim actuation that works the same as a flat tappet.

Don't get sucked in by the hype, do your research and use common sense.
__________________
“She may not look like much, but she's got it where it counts, kid. I've made a lot of special modifications myself.”

— Han Solo
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 4 Jaw Chuck For This Useful Post:
Husein-p (04-20-2018)
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2018, 12:11 AM
Husein-p's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Iran
Posts: 237
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 267
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 55_327 View Post
What can you tell us about the cam & valve springs? And is this a brand new engine, or has it been broken in?
tnx
my cam is 3702 eddy with std springs
my engine is old not new
no i want to buy 3702 then after break in cam use for daily driving
now I'm investigating for recommended oil to protect new cam will i buy that not to make a mistake for my engine .

i think with this cam and stock std springs if i use SG-SJ oil or SN with STP additive my engine have a safe conditions true ?

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck View Post
I've edited the title of this thread and stickied it for others to look at before posting over and over again regarding the ZDDP issue.

Please review the GM bulletin posted in this thread

Many additives like STP have additional high pressure components that are actually superior to ZDDP if you have a high lift cam and high pressure springs controlling your valve train. Just be aware flat tappet cams don't last forever and if your running a lot of pressure and high rpm no additive is going to change the law of physics, it was common knowledge back in the day a cam would go flat in less than 10 000 miles if you were on the bleeding edge of what was possible with a flat tappet cam no matter what oil you were using.

Today you can purchase micro hole lifters to help combat this issue, all the bad soft core cams are likely out of the system when mfg went to china and they went through their learning curve regarding heat treatment and lobe finishes.

As always the bet protection you can buy is regular oil changes to get micro contaminants out of the oil which act as lapping compound, most filters don't get anything below 10 microns and some don't get anything finer than 50 microns...that means extra fine lapping paste in your engine constantly being recirculated!

Don't believe everything you read, there are literally millions of cars out there running just fine because the owner has no idea his car has a flat tappet cam in it not to mention the millions of OHC engines with bucket over shim actuation that works the same as a flat tappet.

Don't get sucked in by the hype, do your research and use common sense.

tnx for rename subject

ok i'll read gm bulletin
yeah i know but how much STP must add to primary oil for every change ?
Chevy sbc or L6 need 4.5 Litters oil for 4.5 how much stp need ?

omg your means if i use best oil again not important
if i run that engine with high RPMs and use high pressure springs and cam finally my cam after 10k miles damaged and i must change with a new one ?
but with low lift and std spring no is this true ?
after researching i decide to use low lift cam like 3702 or 2102 eddy and std springs for long cam life not 10k miles !

is my theory true ?

whats micro hole lifters ?

yeah but those are use shower oil lubricant system for cam for example XU7 engine of Peugeot cars ...

tnq vry much
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2018, 08:57 AM
chasracer's Avatar
True Hotrodder
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Posts: 506
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 33
Thanked 113 Times in 101 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by lmsport View Post
If you're going to run the engine hard, get a high performance oil. Mobil1 is good for your stock engine, but does not contain alot of the additives that are beneficial in a high performance engine. Look at the Castrol or Valvoline racing oils.

WRONG!


Wish the hell people would quit trying to recommend racing oils for street use. Unless your going to drop the oil and filter every 30 days to get it out of there you're causing more damage to your engine than good. Racing oils are meant to be warm then hot and provide protection for long periods of high RPM usage. They do not contain the detergents that a street engine needs, nor the cold start lubrication that a street engine needs. Run racing oil for 3000 miles of street use, pull the pan and take a look at the crap you have there. They also are very damaging to the emission systems of today's modern cars. Nothing like having to replace expensive catalytic units because you ran the wrong oil in your engine.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 12-02-2018, 11:45 PM
Husein-p's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Iran
Posts: 237
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 267
Thanked 5 Times in 4 Posts
thanks men

i decide to use sg oil grade or sj for flat tappet cam with maximum 0.425 valve lift
but for higher lift i will be use roller cam and ...


tnx for reply
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 05-11-2019, 11:29 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Feb 2018
Location: Oklahoma City Oklahoma
Posts: 30
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 17
Thanked 5 Times in 5 Posts
Zddp

Checkout Bobistheoilguy.com. It is a very good read. https://www.bobistheoilguy.com/. Good luck. I've been running Royal Purple 10W30 in my 1984 Z28 for 15 years with a Comp XE256 305 L69 engine Still goin strong. So for new oills, I have seen no probs.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 65panhed For This Useful Post:
Husein-p (05-12-2019)
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 05-19-2019, 01:21 PM
55_327's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Texas
Posts: 542
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 7
Thanked 107 Times in 92 Posts
Regarding the Starburst oil "Sequence IIIG" test that evaluates cam and lifter wear with using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s: I wonder what the valve spring seat pressure was. 70-80 pounds?

Sure would interesting to see a test using a solid lifter 350 from an early 70s Z28. That would be a heck of a lot more relevant to hot rodders.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to 55_327 For This Useful Post:
Husein-p (05-23-2019)

Recent Hotrodding Basics posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
STP Oil Treatment (Contains ZDDP?) Torque454 Engine 24 12-27-2015 11:16 PM
Motor oils with ZDDP 65 f-100 restore Engine 7 05-19-2014 12:21 PM
What oil needed zddp Hookedup12 Hotrodding Basics 10 08-10-2012 02:14 AM
Oil ratings, ZDDP, and additives ScoTFrenzel Engine 5 06-24-2008 07:14 PM
ZDDP Oil capta1n Engine 5 01-03-2008 09:08 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 01:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.