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Old 04-13-2018, 09:20 AM
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Motor oil SAE grade question How much ZDDP do I need?

hi
i need to know how much zddp additive in SAE standards oil grade
for this subject i has been searched in google and i found this info about Motor oil

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_oil

All the current gasoline categories (including the obsolete SH) have placed limitations on the phosphorus content for certain SAE viscosity grades (the xW-20, xW-30) due to the chemical poisoning that phosphorus has on catalytic converters. Phosphorus is a key anti-wear component in motor oil and is usually found in motor oil in the form of zinc dithiophosphate (ZDDP). Each new API category has placed successively lower phosphorus and zinc limits, and thus has created a controversial issue of obsolescent oils needed for older engines, especially engines with sliding (flat/cleave) tappets. API and ILSAC, which represents most of the world's major automobile/engine manufacturers, state API SM/ILSAC GF-4 is fully backwards compatible, and it is noted that one of the engine tests required for API SM, the Sequence IVA, is a sliding tappet design to test specifically for cam wear protection. Not everyone is in agreement with backwards compatibility, and in addition, there are special situations, such as "performance" engines or fully race built engines, where the engine protection requirements are above and beyond API/ILSAC requirements. Because of this, there are specialty oils out in the market place with higher than API allowed phosphorus levels. Most engines built before 1985 have the flat/cleave bearing style systems of construction, which is sensitive to reducing zinc and phosphorus. For example, in API SG rated oils, this was at the 1200–1300 ppm level for zinc and phosphorus, where the current SM is under 600 ppm. This reduction in anti-wear chemicals in oil has caused premature failures of camshafts and other high pressure bearings in many older automobiles and has been blamed for premature failure of the oil pump drive/cam position sensor gear that is meshed with camshaft gear in some modern engines.

my real problem is unavailability zddp in iran and i need zddp for my engine with new high lift cam

so following to this info if i use SG grade engine oil i'll have 1200 ppm zddp and for high pressure springs,lift 1200 ppm is ok and no need to add additive

right ?

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Old 04-13-2018, 09:47 AM
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There's much much more to it than just Zinc. Media, marketing and the internet lies to you.
Your 1200ppm additive is fine. It's not going to hurt anything.
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Old 04-13-2018, 02:00 PM
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Mobil One oil is available from most auto parts stores (I assume also in the middle east), and this chart shows the zinc and phospherous levels for different viscosities.
https://mobiloil.com/~/media/amer/us...pecs-guide.pdf

I usually buy the 15w50 Mobile One to use with my SBC and flat tappet cam, since it has 1200 phospherous and 1300 zinc. That should be enough for flat tappet cam, and no other additives would be needed. Considering your hot climate, 15w50 should be a good viscosity for you.

Bruce
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Old 04-13-2018, 03:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsongrass1 View Post
There's much much more to it than just Zinc. Media, marketing and the internet lies to you.
Your 1200ppm additive is fine. It's not going to hurt anything.
your means is wikipedia is lie and write lie about api grade ?
my additive ? where is it !!! i talked about sg oil and i said sg have 1200 ppm zinc not my self !

my question is motor oil with sg api standard have how much zinc ? if 1200 ppm can i use this oil for my engine with high lift cam ?

because zddp additive unavailble and stp is availble but expensive
sg oil is cheap and availble in all city of iran !!! i can use sg oil for my l6 engine with 0.490 valve lift and after 3k km or 2k miles change it

about mobile 1 i think is unavailble but i'll be search
if i can find them is very good but sn grade mobile 1 oil certainly is very expensive i think 5 times over sg oil price
sg oil price in iran is 5$ for 4L but castrol gtx magnatec is 15$
iranian behran oil with SN grade price is 20$
http://www.behranoil.com/en/product/2528-BMB-PLUS.html

so i think mobil 1 can take 40$

Last edited by Husein-p; 04-13-2018 at 03:22 PM.
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Old 04-13-2018, 04:59 PM
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If you're going to run the engine hard, get a high performance oil. Mobil1 is good for your stock engine, but does not contain alot of the additives that are beneficial in a high performance engine. Look at the Castrol or Valvoline racing oils.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lmsport View Post
If you're going to run the engine hard, get a high performance oil. Mobil1 is good for your stock engine, but does not contain alot of the additives that are beneficial in a high performance engine. Look at the Castrol or Valvoline racing oils.
ok
your means is for high performance engine 1200 ppm zddp is not enough but also about 2000 ppm needed right ?

in iran market for usa and Europe sanctions not only castrol racing isnt available but also original castrol oil isnt available
i dont know what do i do !
kill my engine cam or kill my self

if i'll find racing oil is great but i doubt
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Old 04-14-2018, 03:15 AM
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Use any oil and add one can of STP High Mileage additive or similar, you need to review the product contents of whats available in your area to find a substitute.

ZDDP is just one additive that protects flat tappets, other high pressure additives do the same job...for example hypoid gears require high pressure oils fortified with HP additives.

Don't get hung up this issue, it was blown far out of proportion to the actual effect to the public.
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Old 04-14-2018, 03:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 4 Jaw Chuck View Post
Use any oil and add one can of STP High Mileage additive or similar, you need to review the product contents of whats available in your area to find a substitute.

ZDDP is just one additive that protects flat tappets, other high pressure additives do the same job...for example hypoid gears require high pressure oils fortified with HP additives.

Don't get hung up this issue, it was blown far out of proportion to the actual effect to the public.
ok
i can buy this additive :

is this ok ?

yeah other same additive do this job i got it

lol
but i fear about this subject
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Old 04-14-2018, 05:42 AM
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GM Bulletin regarding modern oils:

Quote:
Over the years there has been an overabundance of engine oil myths. Here are some facts you may want to pass along to customers to help debunk the fiction behind these myths.

The Pennsylvania Crude Myth -- This myth is based on a misapplication of truth. In 1859, the first commercially successful oil well was drilled in Titusville, Pennsylvania.
A myth got started before World War II claiming that the only good oils were those made from pure Pennsylvania crude oil. At the time, only minimal refining was used to make engine oil from crude oil. Under these refining conditions, Pennsylvania crude oil made better engine oil than Texas crude or California crude. Today, with modern refining methods, almost any crude can be made into good engine oil.

Other engine oil myths are based on the notion that the new and the unfamiliar are somehow "bad."

The Detergent Oil Myth -- The next myth to appear is that modern detergent engine oils are bad for older engines. This one got started after World War II, when the government no longer needed all of the available detergent oil for the war effort, and detergent oil hit the market as “heavy-duty” oil.

Many pre-war cars had been driven way past their normal life, their engines were full of sludge and deposits, and the piston rings were completely worn out. Massive piston deposits were the only thing standing between merely high oil consumption and horrendous oil consumption. After a thorough purge by the new detergent oil, increased oil consumption was a possible consequence.
If detergent oils had been available to the public during the war, preventing the massive deposit buildup from occurring in the first place, this myth never would have started. Amazingly, there are still a few people today, 60 years later, who believe that they need to use non-detergent oil in their older cars. Apparently, it takes many years for an oil myth to die.

The Synthetic Oil Myth -- Then there is the myth that new engine break-in will not occur with synthetic oils. This one was apparently started by an aircraft engine manufacturer who put out a bulletin that said so. The fact is that Mobil 1 synthetic oil has been the factory-fill for many thousands of engines. Clearly, they have broken in quite well, and that should put this one to rest.

The Starburst Oil Myth -- The latest myth promoted by the antique and collector car press says that new Starburst/ API SM engine oils (called Starburst for the shape of the symbol on the container) are bad for older engines because the amount of anti-wear additive in them has been reduced. The anti-wear additive being discussed is zinc dithiophosphate (ZDP).

Before debunking this myth, we need to look at the history of ZDP usage. For over 60 years, ZDP has been used as an additive in engine oils to provide wear protection and oxidation stability.

ZDP was first added to engine oil to control copper/lead bearing corrosion. Oils with a phosphorus level in the 0.03% range passed a corrosion test introduced in 1942.

In the mid-1950s, when the use of high-lift camshafts increased the potential for scuffing and wear, the phosphorus level contributed by ZDP was increased to the 0.08% range.

In addition, the industry developed a battery of oil tests (called sequences), two of which were valve-train scuffing and wear tests.

A higher level of ZDP was good for flat-tappet valve-train scuffing and wear, but it turned out that more was not better. Although break-in scuffing was reduced by using more phosphorus, longer-term wear increased when phosphorus rose above 0.14%. And, at about 0.20% phosphorus, the ZDP started attacking the grain boundaries in the iron, resulting in camshaft spalling.

By the 1970s, increased antioxidancy was needed to protect the oil in high-load engines, which otherwise could thicken to a point where the engine could no longer pump it. Because ZDP was an inexpensive and effective antioxidant, it was used to place the phosphorus level in the 0.10% range.

However, phosphorus is a poison for exhaust catalysts. So, ZDP levels have been reduced over the last 10-15 years. It's now down to a maximum of 0.08% for Starburst oils. This was supported by the introduction of modern ashless antioxidants that contain no phosphorus.

Enough history. Let's get back to the myth that Starburst oils are no good for older engines. The argument put forth is that while these oils work perfectly well in modern, gasoline engines equipped with roller camshafts, they will cause catastrophic wear in older engines equipped with flat-tappet camshafts.

The facts say otherwise.

Backward compatability was of great importance when the Starburst oil standards were developed by a group of experts from the OEMs, oil companies, and oil additive companies. In addition, multiple oil and additive companies ran no-harm tests on older engines with the new oils; and no problems were uncovered.

The new Starburst specification contains two valve-train wear tests. All Starburst oil formulations must pass these two tests.

- Sequence IVA tests for camshaft scuffing and wear using a single overhead camshaft engine with slider finger (not roller) followers.

- Sequence IIIG evaluates cam and lifter wear using a V6 engine with a flat-tappet system, similar to those used in the 1980s.

Those who hold onto the myth are ignoring the fact that the new Starburst oils contain about the same percentage of ZDP as the oils that solved the camshaft scuffing and wear issues back in the 1950s. (True, they do contain less ZDP than the oils that solved the oil thickening issues in the 1960s, but that's because they now contain high levels of ashless antioxidants not commercially available in the 1960s.)
Despite the pains taken in developing special flat-tappet camshaft wear tests that these new oils must pass and the fact that the ZDP level of these new oils is comparable to the level found necessary to protect flat-tappet camshafts in the past, there will still be those who want to believe the myth that new oils will wear out older engines.
Like other myths before it, history teaches us that it will probably take 60 or 70 years for this one to die also.

Special thanks to GM's Techlink
- Thanks to Bob Olree – GM Powertrain Fuels and Lubricants Group
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Old 04-14-2018, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
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GM Bulletin regarding modern oils:
tnx a lot

but you didnt replied to my question
plz tell me can i use 1 bottle of xado that i sent photo ?

tnq
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:19 AM
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I wouldn't use that additive as a regular addition to every oil change. It appears to be a once every 60,000 mile application. I think what the previous poster is trying to show you is that there are safe levels zdp in the current oils that are available. Throw some oil in it and go for a ride!
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:42 AM
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Originally Posted by NaterBird View Post
I wouldn't use that additive as a regular addition to every oil change. It appears to be a once every 60,000 mile application. I think what the previous poster is trying to show you is that there are safe levels zdp in the current oils that are available. Throw some oil in it and go for a ride!
right
but seller tell me this is stp !
well if that is stp so i can use instead zddp additive right ?

tnx
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:56 AM
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Its not STP, its a more modern additive.

Like most engine oil additives their benefits are questionable.

Use it or don't, doubt you will be able to tell the difference.

It is far more important to change oil regularly to remove accumulated contaminants than what additive you put in it because a good oil already has an additive package.
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Old 04-14-2018, 02:00 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Husein-p View Post
your means is wikipedia is lie and write lie about api grade ?
The internet is a very powerful tool The most powerful tool we have ever invented in the history of man. The ability to communicate in micro seconds has led us to things and information we couldn't even dream of 30 years ago.
This ability to replay information also means we relay false information at the same speed. 90 percent of whats on the internet is wrong or partially wrong.

WIKI, a web site where anyone can log in and edit the info...you think it's gonna be reliable or truthful?
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Old 04-14-2018, 04:00 PM
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Quote:
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NaterBird View Post
I wouldn't use that additive as a regular addition to every oil change. It appears to be a once every 60,000 mile application. I think what the previous poster is trying to show you is that there are safe levels zdp in the current oils that are available. Throw some oil in it and go for a ride!
right
but seller tell me this is stp !
well if that is stp so i can use instead zddp additive right ?

tnx
That is not stp. I would not use that additive as a regular addition to your oil changes. To be honest, I really wouldn't worry about it. I know plenty of flat cams that live on regular good quality oil. No additives. I run 15-40 diesel oil because that's what we have on the farm. I have never had a cam issue. Good luck - Nate
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