My first sbc build - Page 2 - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Engine
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #16 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2013, 07:45 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 12,581
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 218
Thanked 1,194 Times in 946 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Let me start off by stating that I come from the import world, I know a fair bit about fixing engines and have put a few together but am new to building them.
My uncle recruited me for a project, building a 350 for a car that he found. He said he wants about 450hp out of it, and wants it to be reliable and streetable. All I have to start with is a one piece rear, 4 bolt main 350 block factory set up for roller lifters. I am going to make this my official question thread and hopefully you guys can help me through this and we can make a sweet engine. (did I mention that money is no issue "as long as cost doesn't get insane" )
So first off I was thinking Scat 383 rotating assembly, specifically part number 1-41823BIE. Forged crank, forged 6" connecting rods, forged +5cc flat top pistons. The kit comes balanced and includes main and rod bearings, and piston rings. Any reviews on these Scat rotating assemblies? Are they good quality? How fast do you think I could spin this assembly?
Second the heads, This needs to be a street car, so 93 octane fuel. I was thinking 72cc head which would give about 10:1 comp ratio according to scat. I was thinking dart heads. Specifically the 215cc iron eagles. (Spec sheet here) Are these good heads? Should I step it up to the 230cc heads? ($60 more for the pair) The disadvantage of the 230cc heads is that they require solid lifters.
What are your opinions on iron vs aluminum heads? Its 300 more to go aluminum and I do not like the idea of dissimilar metals for the block and heads (different expansion contraction, dissimilar metals promote corrosion/electrolysis in the coolant). So What are the disadvantages of iron heads?
That is as far as I have figured so far, but I was thinking edlebrock RPM intake, 700cfm 4-barrel carb, probably HEI distributor, possibly a MSD 6A ignition module, and I'm assuming a stall converter. I don't even know where to start on the valve train, I know nothing about picking out a cam, and I can't pick the lifters or rockers till I decide on the head.

A little extra information, this will be going in a 71 Nova with a 4L60E behind it.

Looking for any help and/or advise from the experts. Like I said this will be my official question thread and I will keep it updated on how the build is going. Hopefully with your help we will be able to make a sweet engine.
Thanks!
450 horses from a 383 is not a problem, I'd wonder more about the 4L60E like why an electronic gear box that requires a computer interface?

A big cam will force a high stall converter, that's usually not much fun on the street unless this is only a Saturday night cruiser. I'd try to stay under 280 degrees net duration at about a half inch lift with a 1.5 rocker.

Aluminum heads on an iron block are no big deal. Use a good head gasket like the GM 10105117 which has stainless steel faces on both sides or the 14096405 which has a stainless steel face on one side and graphite on the other. They both have a compressed thickness of .028 which helps keep the squish/quench clearance tight with an undecked block. Aluminum gives a lot of space in the war against detonation than iron will because of its faster rate of heat conduction. This buys some space for bad fuel, too much spark advance, too little cooling, wrong gear for the throttle position stuff like that. As long as you stay up on the coolant quality and run independent grounds off the heads which the MSD should have anyway stray voltages in the cooling system aren't a problem. Plus they take 40-50 pounds off the engine.

Combustion chamber shape is all important, the Dart 215 is a little iffy in my book, most of what's needed is there but I prefer a chamber with more push toward the center of the chamber and at the exhaust valve than this head has. Since cost is less of an object I'd look at AFR 210 Eliminators or TFS Super 23's these use a 195 cc port that breathes like a much larger port. The advantage lies in higher mixture velocity which builds up a fatter lower end torque curve. That should make keeping rubber on the rear tires with the super low gear of the 4L60E a real exercise in caution. However, the message I hope to bring is chamber shapes, there's an easy 50 horses to be had there. Take any dyno run in the cam ads using a Torquer SR for example, take that head off and put a stock Vortec on the engine and the power will go up an easy 40 or 50 ponies.

Probably the best all-around intake out there is the Edlebrock Performer RPM. If he's going to run gears in the rear end around 4:1 the Victor Jr is a big candidate. 700 CFM is probably the bottom candidate for this engine, it should be just enough. If you get too small it gets to be a problem to keep a stable mixture ratio over a wide RPM band. The Holley gives more tune space by keeping main metering and power enrichment in two different circuits. You can get there with the Carter but the power and main metering off the same jet with a multi step metering rod and variable pressure metering piston return springs can drive you to drink.

Bogie

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #17 (permalink)  
Old 11-16-2013, 09:03 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 12,317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 871
Thanked 1,461 Times in 1,351 Posts
joker and old,consider what lhmurphy has to say,he has a 383 with AFR 210s,only 9.4:1 and a mild solid roller.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #18 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 08:52 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 15
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok so decided on the AFR 195cc head, I will probably get the 65cc combustion chamber heads with the same lower end kit as before, this should put my comp ratio at about 11:1. I think I will try to use a little thicker head gasket to get that to come down a bit.

Also been looking into cams a little. What do you guys think of this cam, 08-413-8?
Basic Operating RPM Range:1,500-5,500
Duration at 050 inch Lift:220 int./224 exh.
Advertised Duration:270 int./274 exh.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.474 int./0.474 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):111

Or else there is the 08-414-8, basically the same but with 10 more degrees of duration. I'm hoping this is where techinspector will weigh in on closing point of the cams

Thinking that I could use some 1.6:1 rocker arms to get just a little more valve lift out of these cams too.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #19 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 09:04 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 12,317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 871
Thanked 1,461 Times in 1,351 Posts
If you are willing to spend the money to get very good heads like AFRs,then buy a decent cam and make some power!
lhmurphy
his engine made a very nice 500 horse power with excellent power curves
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #20 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 09:11 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: St. Louis, MO
Age: 34
Posts: 9,527
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 20
Thanked 405 Times in 378 Posts
If you want a lot of rpm it pays to go light weight. Also go with 210cc heads if you'll be spinning it high often. Lastly I'd get cheap heads and put the money into efi if it were mine, for a driver efi makes a huge difference, it doesn't make any more power but it can but tuned far better for variable driving conditions. Peak hp numbers don't really mean that much when it comes to a car on the street.



Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #21 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 09:40 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Zephyrhills, Florida, USA
Age: 77
Posts: 16,983
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 1,919
Thanked 2,830 Times in 2,117 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Ok so decided on the AFR 195cc head, I will probably get the 65cc combustion chamber heads with the same lower end kit as before, this should put my comp ratio at about 11:1. I think I will try to use a little thicker head gasket to get that to come down a bit.
NO, NO, NO. Don't use a thicker head gasket in a vain attempt to lower static compression ratio. The motor will detonate worse than if you had left it alone because it now has a wider squish, or perhaps no squish at all. This info comes from John Erb, chief engineer at Keith Black Pistons. You tailor your static compression ratio with the piston crown volume, piston compression height and combustion chamber volume before you ever buy a part to begin the build. Gasket thickness should be used only to tailor squish, which you want between 0.035" and 0.045".

11.0:1 static compression ratio is too high to depend on pump gas to control detonation. Current thinking puts the limit with iron heads at 9.5 and with aluminum heads, 10.5.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Also been looking into cams a little. What do you guys think of this cam, 08-413-8?
Basic Operating RPM Range:1,500-5,500
Duration at 050 inch Lift:220 int./224 exh.
Advertised Duration:270 int./274 exh.
Valve Lift with Factory Rocker Arm Ratio:0.474 int./0.474 exh.
Lobe Separation (degrees):111
This cam, closing the intake at 37 degrees ABDC, will make the following DCR with the SCR shown.....
9.50:1 SCR, 8.31:1 DCR. Perfectly acceptable and able to operate on lesser fuels without detonation.
9.80:1 SCR, 8.57:1 DCR. Same as above.
10.00:1 SCR, 8.74:1 DCR. Use premium pump gas.
10.50:1 SCR, 9.17:1 DCR. Race gas or alcohol.
11.00:1 SCR, 9.60:1 DCR. Same as above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Or else there is the 08-414-8, basically the same but with 10 more degrees of duration. I'm hoping this is where techinspector will weigh in on closing point of the cams
This cam, closing the intake at 42 degrees ABDC, will make the following DCR with the SCR shown.....
9.50:1 SCR, 8.07:1 DCR. Mushy. Needs more SCR.
9.80:1 SCR, 8.32:1 DCR. Perfectly acceptable.
10.00:1 SCR, 8.48:1 DCR. Same as above.
10.20:1 SCR, 8.65:1 DCR. This is what I would build, with a RPM intake (not the air gap), 750 double pumper, 1 5/8" long-tube, tuned headers, X or H pipe right after the collectors, 2 1/2" to 2 3/4" tubing to the rear bumper, 3500 stall 10" converter, AFR195 heads, 0.035" squish. 14" x 4" air filter assembly, 4.11 gears with Auburn locker. Get in, sit down, shut up and hold on tight.
10.50:1 SCR, 8.90:1 DCR. Might run detonation-free if the squish is tightened up, 0.035" to 0.040" and running premium pump gas and proper ignition timing. Would I run the DCR this high on a streeter? Probably not. I like to have a cushion. Like I said earlier, no matter what you build, someone is gonna be faster.
11.00:1 SCR, 9.31:1 DCR. Race gas or alcohol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Thinking that I could use some 1.6:1 rocker arms to get just a little more valve lift out of these cams too.
You will be adding 16% more effort to the cam lobes/lifters and increasing hp by only 10-12. Not a good idea on a streeter. Shoot for longevity rather than balls-to-the-wall power.

.

Last edited by techinspector1; 11-18-2013 at 10:04 PM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #22 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 15
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Shoot for longevity rather than balls-to-the-wall power.
Word

Where are you getting the valve closing degrees from. On those stat sheets it says intake valve closes 62 degrees ADTC for the first one and 67 for the second one.
Also what do you think of valve lift duration specs on those cams.

To get the right comp ratio I guess I am going to have to build the rotating kit myself then, using the scat crank and selecting pistons with the right dish. The only issue with that is then I have to find a place to get it balanced.
Any idea what stock deck height is on these blocks? I'm assuming that even with the stroker kit deck height will remain the same?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #23 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 10:52 PM
vinniekq2's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: BC,Canada
Age: 61
Posts: 12,317
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 871
Thanked 1,461 Times in 1,351 Posts
or use different cc volume
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #24 (permalink)  
Old 11-18-2013, 11:06 PM
techinspector1's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Zephyrhills, Florida, USA
Age: 77
Posts: 16,983
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 1,919
Thanked 2,830 Times in 2,117 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Word

Where are you getting the valve closing degrees from. On those stat sheets it says intake valve closes 62 degrees ADTC for the first one and 67 for the second one.
Also what do you think of valve lift duration specs on those cams.
Call me on my cell (it's on your PM) and I'll instruct you how to find the 0.050" intake valve closing point.
I don't know what "valve lift duration" is. I know what valve lift is and I know what duration is. That second cam has a decent operating range for a street driver.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
To get the right comp ratio I guess I am going to have to build the rotating kit myself then, using the scat crank and selecting pistons with the right dish. The only issue with that is then I have to find a place to get it balanced.
Any idea what stock deck height is on these blocks? I'm assuming that even with the stroker kit deck height will remain the same?
Blueprint Block deck height (not to be confused with piston deck height) on a Gen I SBC is 9.025". Your goal is to put together a "stack" of parts that will fit into this space and also produce the desired static compression ratio when combined with the heads, piston deck height and head gasket.

Remember when I showed you some combos that would work and you said no, you wanted to do it yourself. OK dude, do it yourself and stop carping about having to find a place to balance the rotating assembly. None of us were born knowing how to do this stuff. We all had to learn by the sweat of our brow. Guess what? It's your turn!
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #25 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2013, 01:24 AM
lhmurphy's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 187
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 34
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Call me on my cell (it's on your PM) and I'll instruct you how to find the 0.050" intake valve closing point.
I don't know what "valve lift duration" is. I know what valve lift is and I know what duration is. That second cam has a decent operating range for a street driver.


Blueprint Block deck height (not to be confused with piston deck height) on a Gen I SBC is 9.025". Your goal is to put together a "stack" of parts that will fit into this space and also produce the desired static compression ratio when combined with the heads, piston deck height and head gasket.

Remember when I showed you some combos that would work and you said no, you wanted to do it yourself. OK dude, do it yourself and stop carping about having to find a place to balance the rotating assembly. None of us were born knowing how to do this stuff. We all had to learn by the sweat of our brow. Guess what? It's your turn!
Tech I think that scat kit will come balanced...I also agree fully with your previous posts...I wish u would talk him into adding the 8019 springs to the AFR 195 Eliminators, comp 853-16 roller lifters from summit/Jegs, and the comp cams 12-433-8 cam...that motor with 9.5:1-10:1 compression with that combo would be a grocery getter, tire melter, U joint breaker, driveshaft twister!

Last edited by lhmurphy; 11-19-2013 at 01:30 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #26 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2013, 01:29 AM
lhmurphy's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 187
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 34
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Word

Where are you getting the valve closing degrees from. On those stat sheets it says intake valve closes 62 degrees ADTC for the first one and 67 for the second one.
Also what do you think of valve lift duration specs on those cams.

To get the right comp ratio I guess I am going to have to build the rotating kit myself then, using the scat crank and selecting pistons with the right dish. The only issue with that is then I have to find a place to get it balanced.
Any idea what stock deck height is on these blocks? I'm assuming that even with the stroker kit deck height will remain the same?
Scat has a kit 1-90505BI on summit for a touch over a grand...this kit plus those AFR 195 Elims with 65cc chamber, and the cam, springs, lifters I recommended...you will be so happy...that engine will scream to 6000 and you will hear the pavement begging for mercy lol
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #27 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2013, 06:30 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 15
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Call me on my cell (it's on your PM) and I'll instruct you how to find the 0.050" intake valve closing point.
I'll call you tomorrow night, I have too much going on tonight.
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I don't know what "valve lift duration" is. I know what valve lift is and I know what duration is. That second cam has a decent operating range for a street driver.
Opps I meant to put valve lift AND duration. Must have added it automatically in my head when I proof read.
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Blueprint Block deck height (not to be confused with piston deck height) on a Gen I SBC is 9.025". Your goal is to put together a "stack" of parts that will fit into this space and also produce the desired static compression ratio when combined with the heads, piston deck height and head gasket.
So I have to add half of stroke, connecting rod length, and piston compression height together, and subtract that from 9.025 to get piston deck height? If so that will help me a lot in determining compression ratios.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lhmurphy
Tech I think that scat kit will come balanced...I also agree fully with your previous posts...I wish u would talk him into adding the 8019 springs to the AFR 195 Eliminators, comp 853-16 roller lifters from summit/Jegs, and the comp cams 12-433-8 cam...that motor with 9.5:1-10:1 compression with that combo would be a grocery getter, tire melter, U joint breaker, driveshaft twister!
What is the advantage of those springs over the ones that come with the heads?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #28 (permalink)  
Old 11-19-2013, 06:36 PM
lhmurphy's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Indiana
Posts: 187
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 34
Thanked 8 Times in 7 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
I'll call you tomorrow night, I have too much going on tonight.

Opps I meant to put valve lift AND duration. Must have added it automatically in my head when I proof read.

So I have to add half of stroke, connecting rod length, and piston compression height together, and subtract that from 9.025 to get piston deck height? If so that will help me a lot in determining compression ratios.


What is the advantage of those springs over the ones that come with the heads?
You have to use those springs for the 12-433-8 cam because the other springs that come on the head can't have more than 240 degrees of duration @.05 lift...the 12-433-8 cam is 236/242 degrees duration at .05 lift so it's too big for the regular springs...if u order through AFR they can send those 195 Eliminators with the 8019 springs installed already...basically if u ran a cam with too much duration with the original springs you would wear the springs out fast and possibly float the valves.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #29 (permalink)  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:17 AM
techinspector1's Avatar
Member
 
Last wiki edit: DynoSim combinations
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Zephyrhills, Florida, USA
Age: 77
Posts: 16,983
Wiki Edits: 326

Thanks: 1,919
Thanked 2,830 Times in 2,117 Posts
"So I have to add half of stroke, connecting rod length, and piston compression height together, and subtract that from 9.025 to get piston deck height? If so that will help me a lot in determining compression ratios. "

Yes, that is correct. However, you're making a leap of faith that the block deck height is 9.025" and that may not be true. Someone who owned the block before you may have machined the decks or it may have been mis-machined at the factory. Always have your machinist check the main bearing bores for being round and parallel before you do anything else. If the mains are valid, then have the machinist measure the block deck height on all four corners. You could do this yourself at home if you had a 12" dial caliper.
I'll repeat one of my oft stated thoughts here......TRUST NOBODY, MEASURE EVERYTHING.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trks...at=0&_from=R40

.

Last edited by techinspector1; 11-20-2013 at 11:23 AM.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #30 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2013, 06:03 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Posts: 15
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1
Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Ok, so here is where I am at,
I measured block height and it is at 9.025. I measured at all 4 corners and they were all with in .003 of each other. Calculating with a 3.750 stroke, 6" rod, and piston with a comp height of 1.125 my deck clearance would be about .025". Add about .028 for gasket thickness and I would have a quench of about .055". Do you think I should get the block decked?
Also I contacted scat and they said they are willing to substitute pistons for me so I can get my compression ratio right where I want it.
That said here is what I was thinking:
65cc heads
9cc piston dish (if I can or else 10cc)
.025 deck height
.028 gasket thickness
4.100 gasket bore
4.030 cylinder bore
3.750 stroke
comp 08-432-8 cam (.050 closing point of 41 ABDC)

This would give me a static compression ratio of 10.2 dynamic comp ratio of 8.66 and quench of .053.

What is your opinion on this combo?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Tags
383, 450hp, engine build

Recent Engine posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
First SBC Build :) Hubba_Bubba Hotrodding Basics 5 06-29-2013 04:00 PM
SBC Build stackitup_91 Hotrodding Basics 6 02-18-2013 09:39 PM
Sbc build stackitup_91 Hotrodding Basics 2 02-18-2013 06:47 PM
SBC Re-build 02essess Engine 6 06-14-2010 10:30 AM
SBC build Wakeskater Engine 36 12-19-2008 08:01 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:59 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.