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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2013, 06:26 PM
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I would prefer a quench of .038 to .045, for a NA motor needing a dish piston, I would go with a D shape dish, whatever volume you need to get your target c.r. JMO

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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 11-25-2013, 09:50 PM
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Forgot to ask too what do you guys think about running a thinner headgasket? I didn't look too hard yet but the first one that I saw was the felpro 1094 which has a compressed thickness of .018. Any other suggestions for thinner headgaskets? Any thoughts on the felpro?
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 11-26-2013, 04:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Forgot to ask too what do you guys think about running a thinner headgasket? I didn't look too hard yet but the first one that I saw was the felpro 1094 which has a compressed thickness of .018. Any other suggestions for thinner headgaskets? Any thoughts on the felpro?
I don't like the idea of a thin head gasket. I have no first hand experience with a thin head gasket but I know a quick search on google and you will find a lot of stories about racers changing them out. Having less material on a gasket that is meant to seal combustion isn't the way to go in my book. If you can swing it you really want a zero deck or a parts stack height of 9.015 so you only have to take off .010 of deck surface that way you can use a good ole .039 gasket or .041 and have a little extra deck material to boot.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 11:09 AM
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So apparently you can't buy a 383 stroker piston with a 10cc dish. The closest that I could find was a 13cc dish. The 13cc dish will work but I am definitely going to have the block decked. I'll either go to .010 deck height and use a .030 gasket or 0 deck height and use a .040 gasket.
I found 2 pistons that will work, one is a wiseco and one is probe. What are your opinions on the two? Are the wiseco's worth the extra money?
Probe SRS Forged Pistons 12345-030
Wiseco Pro Tru Pistons PT095A3
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 12:05 PM
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You're encountering a hard time finding the proper piston because you're trying to match to a 6.0" rod. Is there any reason whatsoever why you can't use a 5.7" rod? There are tons of pistons out there with a ~1.425" compression height that would work.

The Probe you linked has insufficient squish band area in my opinion. The Wiseco you linked is just stupid money and designed for a competition motor.

If you change your build to a 5.7" rod, you could take the money that would have been earmarked for expensive pistons and use it to zero deck the block for Fel-Pro 1003 gaskets. That would satisfy AFR in the event there was a warranty problem because that's the gasket they spec for the heads.
You also could use a piston that does not require an oil ring groove spacer as a crutch for preventing snagging the end of an oil ring in the pin bore because of the short compression height of the piston. 1.125" compression height pistons move the pin up in the piston to the point that it interrupts the oil ring groove, so a spacer ring is used in the groove to prevent the ends of the oil rings from snagging in the pin bore. 1.425" piston pins do not encroach into the oil ring groove, so no spacer ring crutch is needed......fewer parts to go wrong in my opinion.

Then you could find a hypereutectic piston with a good squish pad and ~1.425" compression height, at an affordable price, maybe something like this.....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sl...make/chevrolet

This is all the rod you need......
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sca-25700p/overview/

This is the cast steel crank I would use....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
Use a 400 damper and flexplate with it for external balancing.
Here's a rebuilt 400 damper from Damper Doctor for 62 bucks....
http://www.damperdoctor.com/Merchant...egory_Code=CHE

Here's an example of a good quality flexplate....
http://www.jegs.com/i/TCI/890/399373...oductId=746478

Even though the reciprocating assembly is called external balance, I would have the machine shop touch up the balance to be certain it's on the money.

.

Last edited by techinspector1; 11-28-2013 at 12:31 PM.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 02:21 PM
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Piston selction for the 5.7 rod is a lot better.You can get a pin hgt of 1.425",or,a 1.433".The proper piston selection will give you a lot more gain than you'll ever realize with a 6" rod vs a 5.7.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 11-28-2013, 02:34 PM
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If you think you can make tons more power with a 6" rod, read what an expert has to say about it. Click on this link to read the musings of Ron Iskenderian, son of Ed Iskenderian, the "Camfather".....
Click on this title at the link below: "2005 Rod Lengths/Ratios: Much ado about almost nothing!"
ISKY Racing Cams - Do It Right. Race with the Legend. Camshafts, Connecting Rods, Valve Springs, Lifters
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 11-29-2013, 06:32 PM
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Even when looking for a piston with a 1.425 comp height I still can't get a 10cc dish, the closest is 12cc which I can work with.
The main reason I was looking at a 6" rod is because cost difference between the two lengths was minimal and I read there was advantages to a longer rod. If you think that the probe pistons are no good then I will step down to a 5.7" rod. I would like to stick with a forged piston though even if it is not 100% needed because it is still going to be more durable than a hypereutectic and cost is not that big of an issue.
I still only have 2 piston choices with a 12cc dish and 1.425 comp height
Probe FPS Forged Pistons P3833F-030
Speed-Pro Forged Pistons LW-2605F30

Also what is squish band area and why should I be concerned about it?
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 09:59 AM
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A circular dish piston only has a small flat band around the piston top.This small flat area doesn't provide enuff area to give a proper quench/squish.If you need to add volume,a D cup piston is the best option.It is a comprimise between a dish & a flat top.It will provide a more efficient burn & still give you the benefits of proper quench/squish.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 11:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Even when looking for a piston with a 1.425 comp height I still can't get a 10cc dish, the closest is 12cc which I can work with.
The main reason I was looking at a 6" rod is because cost difference between the two lengths was minimal and I read there was advantages to a longer rod. If you think that the probe pistons are no good then I will step down to a 5.7" rod. I would like to stick with a forged piston though even if it is not 100% needed because it is still going to be more durable than a hypereutectic and cost is not that big of an issue.
I still only have 2 piston choices with a 12cc dish and 1.425 comp height
Probe FPS Forged Pistons P3833F-030
Speed-Pro Forged Pistons LW-2605F30

Also what is squish band area and why should I be concerned about it?
Neither of those are attractive. Let's move in a different direction.
AFR-195 heads, part number 1036 with 75cc chambers
Air Flow Research
Keith Black Icon forged pistons part number IC9931KTM (includes rings)
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ue...m030/overview/
https://www.uempistons.com/index.php...roducts_id=101
GM 10105117 head gaskets
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/na...5117/overview/
Stack is 9.008". Piston deck height is 0.017". Squish is 0.045". Static compression ratio is 9.90:1

You should be worried about squish because that's one of the leading players in preventing detonation in the motor. A squish of 0.035" to 0.045" is considered by most engine builders to be ideal. The piston I chose for you has a compression height of 1.433", so we are picking up 0.008" with this taller piston. This flat-top will work great with the 75cc chambers.
As the piston comes up in the bore, you want a nice, flat area on the piston crown to mate up with the underside of the cylinder head to "squish" or "jet" the mixture that is in that space, across the chamber to homogenize the mixture and eliminate any rich or lean pockets of mixture that might otherwise light off early or not burn at all.

Use this cam for a DCR of 8.60:1.....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-109831/overview/


.

Last edited by techinspector1; 11-30-2013 at 12:01 PM.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 12:08 PM
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If you go back to post #2 you will see Richard has found all the parts for you. The cam I chose is a little bigger,slightly narrower lode displacement angle. If the DCR is a little low,the heads can be shaved if required.
Let us know what you decide?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 02:37 PM
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Using the bigger combustion chamber heads is not something that I have thought about before. I do like the pistons that tech mentioned because then I would not have to get the block decked, they come with a comp height of both 1.133 and 1.433, price difference between the two sets is minimal. I realize that the wrist pin intersects with the oil rings on the 1.133 comp height piston, how big of a deal is this? 6" rods are better than 5.7" rods, I just need to figure out how much better and what the cons are of using the 6" rods.
I was also looking into getting the heads shaved as vinnie mentioned, if I order the heads from AFR it looks like they will do this for me at an additional cost. Shaving them down to 73cc gives me a 9.65 DCR with the comp cam I mentioned earlier. Whch brings me to the question what is the difference between angle and flat milling? AFR offers both.
Lastly what is the difference between the cam that tech mentioned and the one that I was talking about previously, comp 08-432-8? Oviously the numbers are a little different but they are very similular, however the crane cam cost $200 more than the comp cam, why?
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 11-30-2013, 04:14 PM
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Both cams you and Richard mentioned are below 6,000 rpm cams.I hope you reach your H.P. requirements at this low RPM range.
The 6 inch rods have some advantages when dealing with HIGH horse power and or HIGH rpm,for under 6,000 rpm and low HP,I see no advantages
post #23 mentions combustion chamber size
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2013, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
I realize that the wrist pin intersects with the oil rings on the 1.133 comp height piston, how big of a deal is this?
More parts, more complexity in an otherwise simple connection point. More to go wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
6" rods are better than 5.7" rods, I just need to figure out how much better and what the cons are of using the 6" rods.
Did your parents drop you on your head when you were a baby? In post 37, I provided you with a link to a tutorial written by Ron Iskenderian, but it appears that you prefer to believe the geeks down at the Sonic Drive In.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
I was also looking into getting the heads shaved as vinnie mentioned, if I order the heads from AFR it looks like they will do this for me at an additional cost.
You don't need to shave the heads.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Shaving them down to 73cc gives me a 9.65 DCR with the comp cam I mentioned earlier.
You don't know what you're talking about. No motor on the planet will run at 9.65:1 DCR on pump gas.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Whch brings me to the question what is the difference between angle and flat milling? AFR offers both.
Angle milling is for increasing static compression ratio by tilting the head so that most of the cut comes from the combustion chamber side of the head rather than flat milling which takes the same amount of material off the head all the way across.

Quote:
Originally Posted by L_C99 View Post
Lastly what is the difference between the cam that tech mentioned and the one that I was talking about previously, comp 08-432-8? Oviously the numbers are a little different but they are very similular, however the crane cam cost $200 more than the comp cam, why?
Crane uses a better grade of steel.

I don't think there's anything else I need to say in this thread, so I'm done.


.

Last edited by techinspector1; 12-01-2013 at 10:58 AM.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old 12-01-2013, 12:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2
Both cams you and Richard mentioned are below 6,000 rpm cams.I hope you reach your H.P. requirements at this low RPM range.
The 6 inch rods have some advantages when dealing with HIGH horse power and or HIGH rpm,for under 6,000 rpm and low HP,I see no advantages
post #23 mentions combustion chamber size
This engine has to be streetable and reliable before a power house. For that reason i do not want to put too big of a cam in it. If I fall a little short of 450hp than so be it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
More parts, more complexity in an otherwise simple connection point. More to go wrong.

Did your parents drop you on your head when you were a baby? In post 37, I provided you with a link to a tutorial written by Ron Iskenderian, but it appears that you prefer to believe the geeks down at the Sonic Drive In.
In the article that you posted it said that 5-7 hp could be gained from longer rods. I am not expecting anything spectacular from the longer rods, but cost between the two different lengths is minimal (about $100) I am simply trying to figure out if the longer rods are worth the extra $100 taking into consideration what I have read about rod ratios, side loading, power gains, ect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
You don't know what you're talking about. No motor on the planet will run at 9.65:1 DCR on pump gas.
Typo, meant to write 8.65 which you said is ideal, sorry

Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Angle milling is for increasing static compression ratio by tilting the head so that most of the cut comes from the combustion chamber side of the head rather than flat milling which takes the same amount of material off the head all the way across.
Ya I did some research on this after I made that post, if i do get the heads milled I will just get them flat milled.

Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Crane uses a better grade of steel.
better steel worth $200?? I can see going for that if I was running high spring pressures but for my build do you really think I need that?

Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
I don't think there's anything else I need to say in this thread, so I'm done.
I don't mean to offend you, trust me you have helped me a lot so far on this build. I am hear to learn and explore all possibilities. Even if you do not post here again know that I have learned a lot from you and I do hope to continue learning from you and everyone else on here.
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