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Old 08-20-2014, 08:47 AM
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Guys, I think I'm going to go with the AFR eliminator 195cc's

I'm attaching some flow results for the AFR 195's, the brodix 221's and the brodix dragonslayers, just for reference, and it's impressive how well the AFR's outdo the much bigger volume intake runners on the brodix track1 221's and how it goes toe to toe with the hefty DS 225's.

Another thing, is it boasts much better flow rates leading up to what would be maximum lift.

Also, it comes with the choice of a 65cc or 75cc chamber, ericnova72, so that would put me in the ball park of right at 10:1 compression. the 65cc chamber would put me just shy of 11:1.
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Name:	AFR 195cc heads.PNG
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Name:	brodix - track1 221cc.PNG
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Name:	brodix - DS 225cc.PNG
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2014, 09:46 AM
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Some hyd roller options:

Lunati
Voodoo Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Cam - Chevrolet Small Block 282/290 - Lunati Power
0.535"/0.550" lifts; 231/239 duration @ 0.50" and lsa of 110 - $305
like 2500 stall

Comp
COMP Cams 12-433-8 Comp Cams 'Xtreme Energy' Hydraulic Roller Camshafts - Free Shipping on All Orders @ JEGS
0.520"/0.540" ; 236/242 duration @ 0.50" and lsa of 110 - $300
Likes 3000 stall

Howard
Howards, Retro-Fit Hydraulic Roller Camshaft, Chevrolet SB 305-350 87-98, 225/233 @ .050, .525/.530, 110 LS - Competition Products
0.525"/0.530" ; 225/230 duration @ 0.50" and lsa of 110 - ~$270

Now, I'm looking for your opinion on the brands, and whether you think I'm barking up the right tree with these profiles. There are others, of course, but these are reputable, and I know ericnova72 suggested howard.

Also, do you think I'll have clearance issues with any of these? As far as the size of the base circle goes. The short block I'm going to go with didn't mention any concern on the specs, but I know clearances can be an issue with 383's. I'll check the clearance when I'm installing, of course. But I wanted to pick ya'lls brains.

-Taylor
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  #18 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2014, 10:58 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcrunner318 View Post
Guys, I think I'm going to go with the AFR eliminator 195cc's

I'm attaching some flow results for the AFR 195's, the brodix 221's and the brodix dragonslayers, just for reference, and it's impressive how well the AFR's outdo the much bigger volume intake runners on the brodix track1 221's and how it goes toe to toe with the hefty DS 225's.

Another thing, is it boasts much better flow rates leading up to what would be maximum lift.

Also, it comes with the choice of a 65cc or 75cc chamber, ericnova72, so that would put me in the ball park of right at 10:1 compression. the 65cc chamber would put me just shy of 11:1.
Attachment 168018

Attachment 168026

Attachment 168034
the track I's are a 30 y/o head... they are built like a tank..
set up for 400 cid+ sprint cars..

check what standards the afr are tested at and the brodix..
(inches of water)

flow charts are as bad as cam makers and their catalog list duration numbers..
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2014, 11:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vinniekq2 View Post
AP72, how many CCs and CFM in a stock GM LS 427 head?
250cc's and 370cfm for the ls7. not sure why that would matter here, though, isn't he building a sbc?



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Old 08-20-2014, 12:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
the track I's are a 30 y/o head... they are built like a tank..
set up for 400 cid+ sprint cars..

check what standards the afr are tested at and the brodix..
(inches of water)

flow charts are as bad as cam makers and their catalog list duration numbers..
Both show 28" of water. So, that should make the comparisons valid, right?

I understand where you're coming from on that though. That's why I always look at durations at 0.50".
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:34 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gearheadslife View Post
the track I's are a 30 y/o head... they are built like a tank..
set up for 400 cid+ sprint cars..

check what standards the afr are tested at and the brodix..
(inches of water)

flow charts are as bad as cam makers and their catalog list duration numbers..
But, if I'm understanding you right, you'd recommend the track1's?

They look like great heads, especially for the price, but then what your opinion on whether or not 221cc is much more than I need, as ap72 suggested?
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Old 08-20-2014, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ap72 View Post
250cc's and 370cfm for the ls7. not sure why that would matter here, though, isn't he building a sbc?
Yes, I am doing a sbc. But he may be leading to another point, maybe.
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  #23 (permalink)  
Old 08-20-2014, 03:32 PM
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Yeah if you had $1500 in your budget for heads you really can't go wrong with the afr's. 6k rpms or below prob the 195cc. A lot of these new split duration cams though, like the lunati voodoo solids or rollers have very broad ranges. 2500-7k 2800-7200 etc.. So i'd look into running a similar cam and the afr 210's. That would be a beast of a motor and still very streetable in my eyes. People have a lot of personal preference with heads.. but the majority i think would agree that for 15,1600 afr's are where it's at. I think the debate is when you want a 1000 head. Then you got the pro-filers, rhs etc.. I personally only had about 1k for budget on my heads and ran RHS heads and am very satisfied. I think when you start talking brodix, like the dragonslayers or the big afr eliminators you really are looking at cam ranges absurdly high for the street to adequately supply those heads. And when you get that competitive, your going to want to port your heads anyway so a lot of the head design itself might be more important than the factory flow numbers... which played a part in my decision to run RHS because you can port them rather extremely and easily. Just my .02
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HotRodDinosaur View Post
Yeah if you had $1500 in your budget for heads you really can't go wrong with the afr's. 6k rpms or below prob the 195cc. A lot of these new split duration cams though, like the lunati voodoo solids or rollers have very broad ranges. 2500-7k 2800-7200 etc.. So i'd look into running a similar cam and the afr 210's. That would be a beast of a motor and still very streetable in my eyes. People have a lot of personal preference with heads.. but the majority i think would agree that for 15,1600 afr's are where it's at. I think the debate is when you want a 1000 head. Then you got the pro-filers, rhs etc.. I personally only had about 1k for budget on my heads and ran RHS heads and am very satisfied. I think when you start talking brodix, like the dragonslayers or the big afr eliminators you really are looking at cam ranges absurdly high for the street to adequately supply those heads. And when you get that competitive, your going to want to port your heads anyway so a lot of the head design itself might be more important than the factory flow numbers... which played a part in my decision to run RHS because you can port them rather extremely and easily. Just my .02
Yeah, definitely leaning more and more to the AFR's seen so much good stuff from them, I can't pass it up. I think I'll stick with the 195's because the 210's spring load is a bit much for the cam I think I'm going to because it'll be a hyd roller.

So far, it's looking like this
-383 short block with 4340 I-beam rods, scat cast steel crank, and forged Icon pistons at comp products - $2100

-afr 195cc's with 75cc chambers to keep the CR at about 10:1 - $1570

-lunati voodoo retrofit 0.535"/0.550" 231/239 @ 0.50" hyd roller (retrofit) - $300 (add $380 for the lifters)

-still up in the air on carbs. Don't need to go too crazy, but I'm just wondering at what point is 750 cfm okay for all kinds of different brands (or even different styles within the same brand, like holley)

They put similar specs for a lot of them and they start to blend together, to be frank. I saw that the regular ole holley classic double pump 750 cfm was just shy of $500. What's the difference between going with that or the HP or the Ultra HP for that matter?

As far as the big hefty heads go, you're right. I'm seeing the combos that go with those, and that's not my fit. Gotta keep learning in this hobby.
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Old 08-20-2014, 04:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcrunner318 View Post
Yeah, definitely leaning more and more to the AFR's seen so much good stuff from them, I can't pass it up. I think I'll stick with the 195's because the 210's spring load is a bit much for the cam I think I'm going to because it'll be a hyd roller.

So far, it's looking like this
-383 short block with 4340 I-beam rods, scat cast steel crank, and forged Icon pistons at comp products - $2100

-afr 195cc's with 75cc chambers to keep the CR at about 10:1 - $1570

-lunati voodoo retrofit 0.535"/0.550" 231/239 @ 0.50" hyd roller (retrofit) - $300 (add $380 for the lifters)

-still up in the air on carbs. Don't need to go too crazy, but I'm just wondering at what point is 750 cfm okay for all kinds of different brands (or even different styles within the same brand, like holley)

They put similar specs for a lot of them and they start to blend together, to be frank. I saw that the regular ole holley classic double pump 750 cfm was just shy of $500. What's the difference between going with that or the HP or the Ultra HP for that matter?

As far as the big hefty heads go, you're right. I'm seeing the combos that go with those, and that's not my fit. Gotta keep learning in this hobby.
what kind of car is this in? If this is going to see street time you more than likely do NOT want a mechanical secondary carb.

Demon Fuel Systems┬*-1903┬*-750 Street Demon« - Ball Burnished Aluminum

That really is a great design for a street carb. Something that needs to perform well not only at WOT but also idle and part throttle.

BTW, if you call AFR they will set your heads up with whatever springs you need. They have a lot more options than what you will find through a parts house.


And don't forget about rockers, headers, ignition, etc.



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Old 08-20-2014, 05:06 PM
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90' camaro, it's going to primarily be street like I said at the beginning.

Shoot, I guess I decided to not check on that style on whether or not they had a vacuum secondary. You're right, I'm definitely going to want to stick with a vacuum secondary.

You think demon is a good way to go? Ericnova was totally against that. As far as pricing for what they list, yeah, it's a good deal.

I have msd distributor, hooker headers, and roller rockers. I got that covered.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcrunner318 View Post
I want it to basically be a mean street machine with about 450-500 hp and similar torque numbers.Things I currently have:
-Holley 670 double pumper
-Edlebrock airgap aluminum intake
-hooker shorties
-msd street fighter distributor
-and like I said earlier, damper and flexplate that could go on a 383
No reason to re-invent the wheel for a street motor that will be capped at ~6000/6200 and make 500 hp on pump gas. We've put this combo together many times here on this forum. If you want more than that on the street, you should be thinking low static compression ratio, blower and high-buck everything.
I would counsel toward AFR 195's with 65cc chambers and pistons with a 12cc D-cup crown arrangement.
Let's run the numbers on such a combination.....
.7854 x 4.03 x 4.03 x 3.75 x 16.387 = 783.8 cc's in the cylinder
Zero cc's in the piston deck height (zero deck the block and use Fel-Pro 1003 head gaskets)
65 cc's in the head
9.1 cc's in the head gasket
12 cc's in the piston crown

Total cc's 869.9
Subtract cylinder cc's from total cc's and find 86.1 cc's
Divide total cc's by 86.1 and find 10.1:1 static compression ratio with a 0.041" squish.
Use Howards cam and lifters kit CL110255-10 for a 8.60:1 dynamic compression ratio.
Howards Cams # CL110255-10 - SBC Hydraulic Roller Cam & Lifter Kit
To make power, use a 750, 800 or 850 carb on a high-rise, dual-plane intake manifold such as an Edelbrock RPM intake 7101. Weiand 8150 will work also.
Sling the shorty headers over the fence and install a set of long-tube headers, 1 3/4" primary diameter, minimum 3/8" thick flanges. Thinner flanges will curl up from exhaust heat and spit out the gaskets. Install an X or H pipe immediately after the collectors and run your pipes out to the back bumper through mufflers of your choice. Nothing sounds so mickey mouse as pipes that are terminated under the car and resonating on the under-car sheetmetal.

Damper and flexplate choice will be determined by balancing. Internal balance, neutral balance damper and flexplate. External balancing, eccentric weights on the damper and flexplate.
Scat makes a cast steel crank that is affordable and does a good job. They also make a nice connecting rod, part number 25700P that is already clearanced for the cam lobes. Only other grinding for clearance will be at the bottom of the block at the pan rail to clear the big end of the rods. You may or may not have work to do there, depending on the block.

Total up your stack of parts, piston compression height, connecting rod center to center measurement and crankshaft stroke radius (1.875"). Have your machine shop verify that the main bearing bores are round and parallel with each other. Correct as necessary. This is the guts of the motor. If the mains are incorrect, then everything else is also skewed. Cut the block decks to zero based on your stack, with the block chucked up on the main saddles for reference. This will allow you to use the 1003 head gasket and craft the squish at 0.041" for maximum detonation resistance. Use 16-18 degrees ignition lead at the crank and alter your centrifugal advance to total out what the head manufacturer tells you that the heads need.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:12 PM
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Yeah i was curious as well your application? Or just getting ideas for a build? For what items you listed and not being a complete daily driver i think you would be best suited for a standard holley 750 dp. Good carb to learn on and you can buy all the aftermarket items to have it perform as well as the HP series carbs. A cam around the 230 @ .50 range might not benefit from the added advantages of the race series carbs anyway. Like a Holley HP with the 50cc pumps might hurt, the pumps provide more gas available for longer and more volumized "squirts" I'm not to big of a Guru on carbs but it would be all about setting your timing at a base of around 36 degrees advance, run stock jetting on the carb and get the best e.t. playing with the timing between 33-38. Then you would have to start with jetting on the carb, and then maybe go with a 50cc pump just in the front and reduce jetting if you had to.. etc.. I never had a dyno so i always did this sort of setup on test days at the track, but I'd go Holley 750 all the way if your concerned with tuning and tenths at the track, if not.. a nice Vacuum Secondary or even an AVS Edelbrock works well.
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Old 08-20-2014, 05:14 PM
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Ok, Disregard.. it is a daily driver
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Old 08-20-2014, 07:22 PM
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my point,,,yes,,

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xcrunner318 View Post
Yes, I am doing a sbc. But he may be leading to another point, maybe.
the point I was making is that you cannot say a 200 cc runner heads is good to "X" rpm or "X" cubic inches

The flow numbers are where you start
that gives you a potential horse power out put.
Then you find the cam design that will extract that flow from your heads and at the RPM that matches your cubic inches and desired rpm range (355 Vs 383 as an example)
The you figure out what compression ratio you need to match the heads and combustion chamber volume and pistons to get the correct DCR

now you know where the engine you chose will operate best at in the rpm range that takes full advantage of your combination

choose carb size ,double pumpers work just fine on automatics or standards,as a matter of fact the carb doesnt even know whats bolted to the flywheel,could be a propeller,,,,
choose an intake that works best with the flow you require,most often a dual plane intake for the street to match street engine rpm s most used
(everytime I drive my car I reach 6,000 rpm,you may not do that if the power scares you)
pick the correct diameter long tube headers for your engines power level,add a very free flowing mandrel bent system. I recommend full 3" with X pipe
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