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Old 08-19-2014, 07:53 PM
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New Build - 350 or 383? Guidance and suggestions on different combos

Okay, so I'm planning on putting in a new engine into my 90' camaro. I won't have a lot of time my way in a few weeks, so I'm looking to make it a bolt-on matchup kind of deal - where, I'm looking at short blocks, heads, and a cam/lifter set to put together and drop in.

So, what I want out of it. I want it to basically be a mean street machine with about 450-500 hp and similar torque numbers. I could live with low 400s-450 just fine as long as the torque is 450+

Heads:
I'm pretty sure I know which heads I want to go with. I found some Brodix track1 aluminmums with 221cc intake runners, 2.08"/1.6" valves, 67cc combustion chambers, and it can handle 0.700" lift. I figured they would suit the airflow need in order to hit the power numbers I'm aiming at. And they're a decent price at ~$1430 I don't know if it's overambitious, or just right. Let me know your thoughts.

They biggest pickle I'm in is figured out what bottom end I should get that will handle those heads well and handle 450-500 hp fine, at a reasonable price. I'm not trying to overkill it and set it up for 800+ or anything - this engine in particular will never see that, and would rarely even hit the strip for now.

I've found some 383 options:
At Competition Products, roughly 2 that look promising -
5.7" scat 4340 I-beam rods; Icon forged aluminum pistons; scat cast steel; 11:1 CR with 64cc heads; GM 4-bolt block - $2100

Same as above, only with hypereutectic pistons instead of forged - Price: $1900

Blueprint also has one -
I can't find much info on the internals, except for GM "heavy beam" rods; hypereutectic pistons; cast iron crank; 10.38:1 CR with 64cc heads - $2100

As far as 383's go, I know more cubes helps with the power, but then I'm worried about whether dumping in a lot more air to get to that power means I need forged internals or not, or if the durability is going to be fairly shot due to the added stresses from the longer stroke. Also, I have the damper and flexplate from my old 383 that I could use, so a very small plus as far as that goes.

350 options:
Found 2 decent options-
5.7" forged 4340 I-beam rods; "forged" pistons (didn't say anything else); GM forged steel crank; ~10:1 CR with 64cc heads; GM 4-bolt block - $2300 and that is also sold at competition products website.

5.7" powdered metal steel; high silicon aluminum pistons w/offset pins; 1053 forged steel crank; ~9.2:1 CR with 64cc heads; GM 4-bolt block - $2300 and this is sold straight form GM, their ZZ4 short block

Cam
As far as the cam goes, I wanted to settle these things down, and when I feel confident with what I'm going with and I have things lined out, I was going to call comp, lunati, isky, and maybe some more cam manufacturers and get their direct opinion on what cam setup I should go with; however, with the different results I've seen with similar setups, I was thinking specs about like this: ~0.540ish lift(s); duration(s) around 250/260; LSA around 108-110

Things I currently have:
-Holley 670 double pumper
-Edlebrock airgap aluminum intake
-hooker shorties
-msd street fighter distributor
-and like I said earlier, damper and flexplate that could go on a 383

Sorry for the overload, but I figured it best to try and put as much info as I could out there, so you more experienced guys have enough to work with to give some advice.

Let me know what your thoughts are! I'm really just looking for direction, if ya'll have better thoughts for a short block, heads, or what have you, then by all means, I welcome it. And hell, if you think I'm being too ambitious with my goals with what I'm trying to spend, I wanna know what route you think I should go.

Thanks,
Taylor

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Old 08-19-2014, 08:55 PM
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I personally think going smaller than 383 is dumb unless you have a racing class cubic inch limit forcing you to...cubes is torque and more power.

That much spring on the Brodix heads is intended for a solid roller cam only and will kill anything hydraulic roller or flat tappet, are you willing to use a solid roller cam?? The IK 210 may be more up your alley than the Track 1's.

You'll want a head in the 70cc combustion chamber range if any of these flat top piston 383 combo's have to run on pump gas. Either buy them that way or be willing to grind the 67cc out some to get 69-70 cc.

I'd go with the Comp Products forged piston 383 if it was me choosing from that list, no hyper pistons for me, and certainly no refurbished GM rods.

Properly put together, there is no difference in durability compared to a 350, so don't even consider that an issue.

The ZZ4 350 is way overpriced compared to what you get...cheap stock Powdered Metal rods, hyper pistons, low grade forged crank.

Holley doesn't make a "670 Double Pumper", DP's come in 50 cfm increments, 600/650/700/750/800 etc....so what do you actually have?? The 670's are dual feed line Vacuum Secondary "Avenger " series carbs.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:19 PM
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You're right. I guess I'm just over thinking it - as far as horses go, 500 isn't "huge" anymore. I was kind of leaning toward the 383 with the forged pistons because I have a soft spot for torquey strokers, and having forged pistons with it for that price seems like a sweet deal. So I'm relieved that I have some confirmed recommendation on that. Also, on the ZZ4, isn't it a bit silly for them to throw in a forged crank in the first place, and not anything else? Since your crank is far from your weakest link.

And yes, those springs are a little much, but I was too focused on the bigger intake valves. You think th lower grade track1s would still be a bit much ( 140 lbs @ seat with 0.600" max lift; 2.055" valves)? Because no, I definitely dont wanna go solid. Maintenance friendliness is key here, and doing valves every week is not something I plan on doing. I had a hydraulic flat before. And I was thinking about going hydraulic roller. But once again, you think that's too much overkill, since having a roller setup should only make a difference at high rpms?

Still think 70cc is the kicker even on 93?

I'll have to look at those IK210s. I only have IK200s in my jegs book. So, I'll have to do some looking on the web pages.

And you're absolutely right. 670 street avenger. I misspoke and was misinformed. I hate to say it, but carburerators are the things I know the least about.

Thanks for your reply. I really appreciate it.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:38 PM
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What rpm do you want and what is your budget? Plan on running 93 octane?



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Old 08-19-2014, 09:43 PM
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I don't plan on taking it over 6k, really. But on those rare occasions, I like having the comfort of knowing it'll handle more.

And with the short block, heads, cam, possibly carb upgrade, and stall, I was thinking 4.5-5k. Prefer under 5k and more in that 4k range.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:44 PM
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And yes, ap72, plan on running 93.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:44 PM
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for torque,biger is better,,,
A small solid roller makes great power and they have a decent idle. Roller cams make more power over the entire rpm range not just top end. Other heads to consider AFR 195/210s or profilers.
Im a horse power guy,torque comes with horse pwer anyways
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:47 PM
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Nothing wrong with the lesser spring/valve size Track 1's, and unless you are going to go over .600" lift and above 7000 rpm you'd never utilize the flow potential of a 2.08" intake valve anyway.

For what it seems you want to do, I'd go hydraulic roller or solid flat tappet, wouldn't even bother with hydraulic flat tappet, and you've stated no solid roller, so.....

670 cfm carb is a bit small for a 383, I like to use nothing smaller than a 750 unless it is just a truck motor.

On cylinder heads, watch out for angled spark plugs, lots of the common street headers will not clear angle plugs, so make sure you check to see if your headers will clear before you order.

Howards Cams has about the best deal on retro-fit hydraulic roller cams and lifter packages, see them at Competition Products.....they have pretty good deals on Brodix heads also.
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Old 08-19-2014, 09:57 PM
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True. Torque is the power that lies within each rotate, horses are when you can add that with some good rpms.

Yes. I've looked at the AFR 195 streets, and they boast damn impressive flows with 2.02" valves.

I've also researched some dart pro1s. What do you think about those?

Dart pro1 1.437" springs; 200cc intake; 2.02" valves; 64/72cc chambers - $1550
Afr 1.29" springs; 195cc intake; 2.02" valves; 65/75cc chambers - $1450-1500 (135lbs at seat 0.600" Mac lift)
Brodix track1 1.47" springs; 221cc intake; 2.055" valves; 67cc chambers - $1400 (140lbs at seat 0.600" max lift)
Brodix dragonslayers 1.55" springs; 225cc intake; 2.08" valves; 64/68cc chambers - ~$1700 (don't know if these would be too much for hydraulic cam - 140lbs at seat and 400lb open 0.600" max lift)

These are some highlighted ones. You think I'm on the right path, or still too much spring?
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:07 PM
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Okay awesome. Hydraulic roller it is. I've seen Howard cams come up a lot. I'll give them a look.

I've definitely kept my eye on those angled bastards. I have enough trouble with my headers and straight plugs...

Haha, you're right about the valves, but you know how it is, looking at numbers, bigger is ALWAYS better, etc...okay, yeah, those more forgiving brodix heads should do nicely then, because I'm definitely not going over 0.600".
And do you still think 67cc combustion chamber is too small with the CR and 93?

I've looked at some demon 750s...and they're a little pricey, but I've known some people to have good results with them. Speed demon 750 with vacuum secondary is from $460 on jegs. What are your thoughts on the carb?
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:30 PM
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I've seen a lot of reports of Demon being hard to tune. Then you also have the fact that the Holley style Demon is no longer being made, Demon is out of business(Barry Grant, anyway) and it appears that it is just old stock being sold off.

Holley HP or go to a carb builder like Quickfuel, ProSystems, APD, AED, BLP.

67cc chamber puts you awfully close to 11-1 compression, a bit out there for pump gas, especially if you don't stay on top of the tune and weather.

Hydro roller cams typically need seat pressure in the 135-170 lb area. 400-500 lbs open pressures.

Of all the heads you listed, the Dart's seem to have the lowest flow numbers in independent testing.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:39 PM
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Thanks for the insight on demon. I've also heard good things about quick fuel. I'll look into them.

And yeah, 11:1 is a little gnarley. With 67, it'd be...10.8ish. So, I'll keep looking as far as that goes.

That's what I've seen about rollers, so the heads choices will do just nicely. And well, I think I'm going to try to find a brodix with a slightly bigger chamber then, because they have some decent deals.
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:50 PM
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If your really looking at a 6,000 rpm redline you don't really want a head over 200cc's. And flow is not the end all be all. And the smaller valve the better actually- assuming you can still get adequate flow. For 500hp 2.02" is more than sufficent. You want a head that isa well balanced package, and not a race head. A 220cc head on a 383 is good for almost 7000 rpm, which is too much and will not perform as well in your target range. Also, for that rpm range your cam won't need to be bigger than 230 on the intake, assuming hyd roller.

Don't get sucked in to thinking bigger is better- it's not. Better is better.



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Old 08-19-2014, 10:51 PM
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custom built HP series Holleys cost $640
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Old 08-19-2014, 10:52 PM
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AP72, how many CCs and CFM in a stock GM LS 427 head?
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