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Topic Review (Newest First)
04-26-2015 12:44 PM
BuzzLOL . Yeah, would only make sense for the DIYer to sort through used lifters in the yard... totaled low mileage vehicles would be best bet... maybe I'll do it that way...
04-26-2015 01:05 AM
ericnova72
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzLOL View Post
. The video mentioned something about it not being cheaper because the lifters cost more... WOW! ... $560/16 at Rock Auto pricing! ... Those 60 degree V engines are always a pain to do anything with...
Back when this idea first was thrown out onto the interwebs the cheap idea was to go to your local u-pick-em salvage yard, open up 2 of this V6's and snatch 16 used lifters, paying like a buck per lifter....bring them home and dis-assemble the hydro guts for cleaning and then use them in your build.....risky because you don't know the lifters past life(oil changed regularly or no, mileage??, etc) and you can't service the roller end.

I threw the idea away long ago.
04-25-2015 06:37 PM
Jahblah90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzLOL View Post
. The video mentioned something about it not being cheaper because the lifters cost more... WOW! ... $560/16 at Rock Auto pricing! ... Those 60 degree V engines are always a pain to do anything with...
LOL nevermind then! That guy would have definitely come out cheaper with retro-fit lifters!!! A Lunati set is $300. $260 for a decent retro cam and your in the ballpark. I'm removing that video from my favorites now lol
04-25-2015 06:06 PM
BuzzLOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahblah90 View Post
Seems like a lot cheaper route.
. The video mentioned something about it not being cheaper because the lifters cost more... WOW! ... $560/16 at Rock Auto pricing! ... Those 60 degree V engines are always a pain to do anything with...
04-25-2015 05:52 PM
Jahblah90 Yeah, that's what I wanted to try. Seems like a lot cheaper route. Using the bone plate as guidance, wouldn't have been TOO hard. Plus I work with a machining shop so getting this done wouldn't have been that difficult of a task. I may try it if I run across another cheap block.
04-25-2015 05:30 PM
BuzzLOL . Thanks, Eric... I presume those lifters are even lighter yet... maybe about like a flat tappet hydraulic lifter...
.
04-25-2015 05:19 PM
ericnova72
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzLOL View Post
. That video about converting the 400 block to EOM roller lifter setup so can use the lighter OEM roller lifters was interesting... but I didn't catch why he used the special V6 lifters instead of the regular V8/V6 lifters... is it in there somewhere? I may try that on my 400 block... not sure if I'll put that in my '87 GTA or just hop up the TPI 350...
.
The 60 V6 lifter is shorter than the V8 hydro roller lifter, the shorter lifter must be used because the lifter bore casting in the block is shorter than it is for '86-up roller lifter blocks. The dogbones won't fit right if the taller V8 roller lifters are used on an earlier flat tappet block.

This info is also down in the comments section below the video.
04-25-2015 03:07 PM
BuzzLOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahblah90 View Post
This is why I made the previous statement about drill and tapping my block.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgxFIPJGY80
. That video about converting the 400 block to EOM roller lifter setup so can use the lighter OEM roller lifters was interesting... but I didn't catch why he used the special V6 lifters instead of the regular V8/V6 lifters... is it in there somewhere? I may try that on my 400 block... not sure if I'll put that in my '87 GTA or just hop up the TPI 350...
.
04-25-2015 11:42 AM
Jahblah90
Quote:
Originally Posted by BuzzLOL View Post
. Are you sure the machinist said the rods are standard 5.7" rods from a 350 or smaller? And not standard 5.565" rods from a 400...???
.
I could have sworn he said 5.7 but i'm pretty sure he said standard. Crank is a 400 so maybe he meant standard for the 400 like you said.
04-25-2015 11:38 AM
Jahblah90
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
Exactly what I would have said to the OP. Thanks 64nailhead.

Also, the OP would be on a fool's errand to try to convert a flat tappet block to an OEM-style roller cam. Either begin the build with a factory roller block or use the retro-fit components when converting an early block to rollers.

.
This is why I made the previous statement about drill and tapping my block.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AgxFIPJGY80

Apparently it has been done successfully throughout the hotrodding world. This method seems a lot cheaper but I did not want to take the chance and screw my block up so I HAVE PURCHASED A RETRO-FIT LIFTERS SET. I figured I would buy piece by piece. Yes, buying all the parts in a bundle would be cheaper but my wife won't overlook $700+ out the door LOL she would go ballistic!
04-15-2015 08:18 PM
BuzzLOL
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahblah90 View Post
UPDATE!!!!!!!! The rods are 5.7 standard rods. The crank is from a SBC 400.

. Are you sure the machinist said the rods are standard 5.7" rods from a 350 or smaller? And not standard 5.565" rods from a 400...???
.
04-15-2015 07:23 PM
techinspector1
Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
NO, NO, NO.

Proper squish/quench is 'engineered' into the motor. Changing it via a head gasket thickness change is silly and detrimental to your end goal. As Tech said, don't buy a part until you have laid out on paper everything you'll be purchasing. Also, inorder to change the compression via head gasket thickness is going to be such a minute change that it isn't worth wrecking a proper squish/quench set up. You change compression via different piston or head volume which implies you need to buy the right parts up front.
Exactly what I would have said to the OP. Thanks 64nailhead.

Also, the OP would be on a fool's errand to try to convert a flat tappet block to an OEM-style roller cam. Either begin the build with a factory roller block or use the retro-fit components when converting an early block to rollers. Expense is relative, you only have to frag one flat tappet cam, then have to remove the motor and tear it down completely to remove all the shrapnel to find out that there is a better way with a retro-roller in the first place. Howards has SBC cam and lifter kits for under 600 bucks.

Please read through this tutorial to find out why it's foolish to run a flat tappet cam today....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w...ips_and_tricks

.
04-15-2015 05:44 PM
64nailhead
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jahblah90 View Post
L I like your projected static compression ratio a lot better, and if plans need adjustments, I could just rethink gasket thickness to compensate instead of pistons or head chambers.
NO, NO, NO.

Proper squish/quench is 'engineered' into the motor. Changing it via a head gasket thickness change is silly and detrimental to your end goal. As Tech said, don't buy a part until you have laid out on paper everything you'll be purchasing. Also, inorder to change the compression via head gasket thickness is going to be such a minute change that it isn't worth wrecking a proper squish/quench set up. You change compression via different piston or head volume which implies you need to buy the right parts up front.
04-15-2015 05:19 PM
Jahblah90
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
If those are production 5.7" Chevy rods, then the builder must have used a cam with reduced diameter base circle. Stock rods in a 383 will hit some of the cam lobes, so you can either replace the rods with units that will clear (such as the Scat #25700P) and use full-size cam lobe circle or use a reduced lobe circle cam if you are going to use 5.7" production rods.

I'm going to give you some advice.....
1. Do not buy ANY parts of ANY kind until you have a complete engine build plan written down on paper that everyone on this board has read and approved.

I learned a long time ago not to buy a pig in a poke and hopefully you have just learned that lesson also. Never buy a complete motor that you have not seen inside of. Much cheaper and smarter to buy individual parts and pieces at current market value and engineer the build yourself with help from fellows like the ones on this forum.

If you're going to use aluminum heads, they will allow a max static compression ratio of about 10.5:1 on pump gas. More SCR than that could get the motor into detonation, and you've already seen the results of that. You don't have to build the motor at 10.5:1 though, you can build it at mostly anywhere between 9.0:1 and 10.5:1, depending on the camshaft characteristics you are looking for. For instance, a 9.0:1 to 9.5:1 build would allow the use of a mild camshaft, resulting in good street performance with good fuel mileage and good manifold vacuum for decent fuel mileage and for operating power brakes and other vacuum-operated accessories. The wilder you go with the cam timing, the more concessions you will have to make and the steeper gears you will need in the differential, because the cam will be operating in a higher range of rpms and so will require stiffer gears.

When planning a build, begin with your stack of parts. Add the piston compression height, the rod center to center length and the radius of the stroke together and find the STACK. For instance, you might use a 1.425" piston compression height, 5.7" rod length and 1.875" crank radius to arrive at a stack of 9.000". Or you might prefer a longer rod, using a 1.125" piston compression height, 6.0" rod length and 1.875" crank radius to arrive at a stack of 9.000". Here's the rod I would use if I were going to build a long-rod motor, it is clearanced to miss the cam lobes of a standard base circle camshaft....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
Oftentimes, beginning with a new set of quality rods that are ready to use will be cheaper than re-conditioning production Chevy rods, particularly if you add magnaflux to find cracks and quality aftermarket rod bolts and nuts. Then you still have to address the clearance problems at the cam.

Now, you have a stack of 9.000" that you need to fit into the block, with the proper piston deck height to allow the use of a composition gasket and still engineer the squish to 0.035" to 0.045".

Airflow Research recommends a Fel-Pro 1003 composition head gasket with their aluminum heads, so that is what I would go with, no matter whose aluminum heads I used. The bore is 4.166" and it compresses to 0.041". If you use steel shim head gaskets with aluminum heads, the differential in movement between the iron block and the aluminum heads will cause the heads to move around. If you use a steel shim head gasket, there will be insufficient "cushion" to absorb the movement and the heads will suffer fretting, wearing away of the head surface because of the relative softness of the aluminum against a relatively different-moving steel gasket.

I like to recommend a very tight 0.035" squish on a SBC, so in this case, with a 9.000" stack, I would cut the block decks to a new block deck height of 8.994" after having the machine shop verify that the main saddle bores are all round and parallel with each other. Get the mains dialed in first, that's the foundation of the motor, then cut the decks. The stack of 9.000" and the block deck height of 8.994" will allow the piston crowns to "pop-up" out of the bore by 0.006", allowing a squish of 0.035" with the 0.041" thickness of the composition head gasket.

Such a motor, with 64cc heads and 12cc pistons, would exhibit a 10.34:1 static compression ratio. With the aluminum heads and using a 0.035" squish as outlined above, this motor should run very well without detonation on pump gas. A cam with 0.050" duration of 227 to 230 on the intake side would be a good choice.

Moving to an 18cc piston would allow a 9.72:1 static compression ratio, allowing you to use a milder cam for a more street-friendly operation. A cam with a 0.050" duration of 214-216 on the intake side would be a good choice.

Using an 18cc piston with 70cc chambers would make 9.17:1 static compression ratio, which would like a cam with a 0.050" duration of 204-206 on the intake side.

Here's where I'm getting the cam ranges from. I put this tutorial together after thoroughly investigating the recommendations of Crane Cams engineers.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._compatibility

A dual-plane, high-rise intake manifold such as the Edelbrock Performer RPM (not the Air Gap model) will make more hp and torque (power under curve) in a street motor than any other manifold you could bolt onto the motor. I don't like the Air Gap model, even though it will make a few more hp than the standard RPM. The open gap on it will not allow heating of the air/fuel charge in cool or cold weather and can contribute to driveability problems. If you're going drag racing and want an extra couple of hp, use the Air Gap. If you're building a street motor where driveability needs to be addressed, use the standard RPM.
The RPM, together with the Weiand Stealth 8016 and the Holley Street Dominator 300-36, were copied from a design that Chevrolet produced for the 1968 Camaro 302 Z-28 motor and farmed out to Winters Foundry to be cast in aluminum. The 8016 and 300-36 have been discontinued from current production, but can be found used on craigslist, racing junk and local swap meets. Another current production manifold that will work well is the Weiand 8150.

An 850 carb would make the most power on a 383, but may be overkill on a street motor. A 750 with vacuum secondaries might be my choice for such a motor, along with a good set of 1 3/4" long-tube headers. Choose only headers with a flange thickness of 3/8" to help prevent the flange from curling up like a potato chip from the heat of operation and spitting out the exhaust gaskets. Install an H or X pipe immediately after the collectors to equalize flow from each side of the motor and sweeten the exhaust note. Actually, a Rochester Quadrajet would be my carburetor of choice on any street motor. It would require a spread-bore intake manifold such as the Edelbrock RPM #7104. If using a Quadrajet interests you, get your hands on Cliff Ruggles book and learn how to rebuild and tune them.....
Cliffs High Performance Quadrajets :: Qjet Carburetor Rebuild Kits, Parts, Quadrajet Rebuilding, Quadrajet Parts, Bushing Kits, Carb Tuning

There now, your turn....
LOL you can breath now! That is a bonafied WHOPPING of good info! I learned a lot too. So I shall go with 18cc dish pistons and 6" rods. I like your projected static compression ratio a lot better, and if plans need adjustments, I could just rethink gasket thickness to compensate instead of pistons or head chambers. I really did want to use the Air Gap because i've always wanted to try it and it had a few more HP over the RPM but I'm not willing to sacrifice that much driveability seeing is how this will be an 80% street car. And judging by your link, i'm going to need a better idea of my compression ratio before a camshaft is determined. I never truly got a good understanding of camshafts so that helped. I want to either go retro-roller camshaft (pretty pricey) or get my block's oil galley drilled and tapped for the dog bone lifter retainer. Flat tappets are cheap but cheap doesn't always equal good. I'm only 24 but i'm slowly building hotrodders wisdom lol I will DEFINITELY run my build sheet by YOU good sir! You took the time out to type this extremely informative post and I honestly do appreciate it. Thank you!
04-15-2015 04:06 PM
123pugsy
Quote:
Originally Posted by techinspector1 View Post
If those are production 5.7" Chevy rods, then the builder must have used a cam with reduced diameter base circle. Stock rods in a 383 will hit some of the cam lobes, so you can either replace the rods with units that will clear (such as the Scat #25700P) and use full-size cam lobe circle or use a reduced lobe circle cam if you are going to use 5.7" production rods.

I'm going to give you some advice.....
1. Do not buy ANY parts of ANY kind until you have a complete engine build plan written down on paper that everyone on this board has read and approved.

I learned a long time ago not to buy a pig in a poke and hopefully you have just learned that lesson also. Never buy a complete motor that you have not seen inside of. Much cheaper and smarter to buy individual parts and pieces at current market value and engineer the build yourself with help from fellows like the ones on this forum.

If you're going to use aluminum heads, they will allow a max static compression ratio of about 10.5:1 on pump gas. More SCR than that could get the motor into detonation, and you've already seen the results of that. You don't have to build the motor at 10.5:1 though, you can build it at mostly anywhere between 9.0:1 and 10.5:1, depending on the camshaft characteristics you are looking for. For instance, a 9.0:1 to 9.5:1 build would allow the use of a mild camshaft, resulting in good street performance with good fuel mileage and good manifold vacuum for decent fuel mileage and for operating power brakes and other vacuum-operated accessories. The wilder you go with the cam timing, the more concessions you will have to make and the steeper gears you will need in the differential, because the cam will be operating in a higher range of rpms and so will require stiffer gears.

When planning a build, begin with your stack of parts. Add the piston compression height, the rod center to center length and the radius of the stroke together and find the STACK. For instance, you might use a 1.425" piston compression height, 5.7" rod length and 1.875" crank radius to arrive at a stack of 9.000". Or you might prefer a longer rod, using a 1.125" piston compression height, 6.0" rod length and 1.875" crank radius to arrive at a stack of 9.000". Here's the rod I would use if I were going to build a long-rod motor, it is clearanced to miss the cam lobes of a standard base circle camshaft....
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sc...make/chevrolet
Oftentimes, beginning with a new set of quality rods that are ready to use will be cheaper than re-conditioning production Chevy rods, particularly if you add magnaflux to find cracks and quality aftermarket rod bolts and nuts. Then you still have to address the clearance problems at the cam.

Now, you have a stack of 9.000" that you need to fit into the block, with the proper piston deck height to allow the use of a composition gasket and still engineer the squish to 0.035" to 0.045".

Airflow Research recommends a Fel-Pro 1003 composition head gasket with their aluminum heads, so that is what I would go with, no matter whose aluminum heads I used. The bore is 4.166" and it compresses to 0.041". If you use steel shim head gaskets with aluminum heads, the differential in movement between the iron block and the aluminum heads will cause the heads to move around. If you use a steel shim head gasket, there will be insufficient "cushion" to absorb the movement and the heads will suffer fretting, wearing away of the head surface because of the relative softness of the aluminum against a relatively different-moving steel gasket.

I like to recommend a very tight 0.035" squish on a SBC, so in this case, with a 9.000" stack, I would cut the block decks to a new block deck height of 8.994" after having the machine shop verify that the main saddle bores are all round and parallel with each other. Get the mains dialed in first, that's the foundation of the motor, then cut the decks. The stack of 9.000" and the block deck height of 8.994" will allow the piston crowns to "pop-up" out of the bore by 0.006", allowing a squish of 0.035" with the 0.041" thickness of the composition head gasket.

Such a motor, with 64cc heads and 12cc pistons, would exhibit a 10.34:1 static compression ratio. With the aluminum heads and using a 0.035" squish as outlined above, this motor should run very well without detonation on pump gas. A cam with 0.050" duration of 227 to 230 on the intake side would be a good choice.

Moving to an 18cc piston would allow a 9.72:1 static compression ratio, allowing you to use a milder cam for a more street-friendly operation. A cam with a 0.050" duration of 214-216 on the intake side would be a good choice.

Using an 18cc piston with 70cc chambers would make 9.17:1 static compression ratio, which would like a cam with a 0.050" duration of 204-206 on the intake side.

Here's where I'm getting the cam ranges from. I put this tutorial together after thoroughly investigating the recommendations of Crane Cams engineers.....
http://www.crankshaftcoalition.com/w..._compatibility

A dual-plane, high-rise intake manifold such as the Edelbrock Performer RPM (not the Air Gap model) will make more hp and torque (power under curve) in a street motor than any other manifold you could bolt onto the motor. I don't like the Air Gap model, even though it will make a few more hp than the standard RPM. The open gap on it will not allow heating of the air/fuel charge in cool or cold weather and can contribute to driveability problems. If you're going drag racing and want an extra couple of hp, use the Air Gap. If you're building a street motor where driveability needs to be addressed, use the standard RPM.
The RPM, together with the Weiand Stealth 8016 and the Holley Street Dominator 300-36, were copied from a design that Chevrolet produced for the 1968 Camaro 302 Z-28 motor and farmed out to Winters Foundry to be cast in aluminum. The 8016 and 300-36 have been discontinued from current production, but can be found used on craigslist, racing junk and local swap meets. Another current production manifold that will work well is the Weiand 8150.

An 850 carb would make the most power on a 383, but may be overkill on a street motor. A 750 with vacuum secondaries might be my choice for such a motor, along with a good set of 1 3/4" long-tube headers. Choose only headers with a flange thickness of 3/8" to help prevent the flange from curling up like a potato chip from the heat of operation and spitting out the exhaust gaskets. Install an H or X pipe immediately after the collectors to equalize flow from each side of the motor and sweeten the exhaust note. Actually, a Rochester Quadrajet would be my carburetor of choice on any street motor. It would require a spread-bore intake manifold such as the Edelbrock RPM #7104. If using a Quadrajet interests you, get your hands on Cliff Ruggles book and learn how to rebuild and tune them.....
Cliffs High Performance Quadrajets :: Qjet Carburetor Rebuild Kits, Parts, Quadrajet Rebuilding, Quadrajet Parts, Bushing Kits, Carb Tuning

There now, your turn....

Excellent post Richard.

Thank you.
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