|10-03-2016 09:10 PM|
|tech69||make templates of the other side in a couple different areas. If you have a bench shrinker you can do it with a piece of thin sheet metal. Then take those to the exact same spot on the other side. That will tell you where you need to push. Not a big deal if you just have a couple tacks, but if you're trying to do it after you weld it in solid it might be an issue. Don't hang your head, absorb all the info and go from there. you can trust the very top and the wheel lip at the wheel house. What's in between is what will need to change most likely.|
|10-03-2016 07:29 AM|
|Too Many Projects||
My first thought is the crown on the right is excessive. It seems to me it should flatten a little right above the wheel opening.
I would use the side of the car to judge where the repair should be to look right.
I would cut the horizontal tacks and have a helper gently push the original quarter out while you sight down the side of the car and determine where it looks right. That, to me, really is the bottom line, whether it "matches" the other side or not is somewhat irrelevant if it doesn't look/fit right on the side you are working on. If you can get 20-30 ft behind and sight both sides, that will provide a good reference of where you are at. You may need to use a block of wood, shaped to fit the contour of the inner wheel house and the quarter to hold the panel where you want it. The block can be held in place against the inner wheel house with drill screws from inside the wheel opening. That will provide a holding mechanism without attaching it to the quarter and patch and putting stress on the panels with screws or clamps.
Use a step ladder and look down on the panel to see if it flows front to rear and hold the trim piece against it to see how the panel fits the trim. Use every reference you have to make it fit the overall area.
|10-03-2016 07:22 AM|
Think of a drawbridge and how one side would collapse without the other. You have to push the quarter out as well as the patch. Echo echo echo.
I had to backtrack and see where the pounding flange flat came into play.
Two personal observations:
Everyone here who could help has said their piece repeatedly. You listen selectively, and may lack the spatial skills required for the task. Not everyone is good with shapes and you're probably good at things those people aren't. Nothing against you really, the world and life itself depends on individuality.
I believe it might be helpful if a moderator merged the three threads you have created concerning the same single panel. All of us have heaped care on them but it just hasn't helped the job.
I hope you don't get upset with me for speaking my mind. You've got to try again while pushing the quarter out. Make a template and stop referencing the straightedge vertically. That's all I got for you at this point. It may sound gruff but I am trying to help. Perhaps a re-read of the entire thread series could foster a new understanding, I don't know. But you're the guy standing next to the car with tools and there's no magic in our words.
|10-02-2016 11:24 PM|
|Chiphead||And I tacked the patch to the inner structure in a few places. It really didnt change a thing. If I cut the tacks at the big cut and posted a picture, would that help?|
|10-02-2016 11:20 PM|
Yup I've got several problems at once.
1: The factory crown went "flat" when I cut the whole side off the car. That was the biggest mistake was to take the whole lower quarter out at once. But man it made fixing the inner structure problems way easier. Its gone flat 4 or 5 inches above the cut, especially from below the gas door to where the wheelhouse starts. Why is the crown gone so far above any work?
2: I listened to somebody and beat the flange flat because the flange was in the way. It didn't fit behind the car like it should, so it was just making me mad. Felt good to hit it. I should have cut it off and not beat it flat. The panel didnt really seem to oil can or do anything crazy when I hit it.
3: I cut a rectangle out, just above the big cut to make an access panel, and then welded it back together after I fixed the inner structure. I had to do a lot of hammer and dolly work to get it to look right again.
So what do I do about #1? I can buy another patch to deal with #2.
|10-02-2016 10:40 AM|
|tech69||a simple hood prop and 2x4 can work for that as well. Just have to find somewhere to measure off of. Good point to bring up.|
|10-01-2016 02:28 PM|
Another thing to remember, and keep track of during the whole process, is that the origional panel is not flat, but has a slight curve to it, and that curve will "suck in" when you make a cut longitudinally.
With nothing behind it to hold it in the proper position when the new panel is welded in you get what you have there. But you can cut your tacks, and get the panel in proper alignment, and sew it up.
I've actually gone so far as to make a few templates out of sheet metal to hold the parts in proper alignment. And when done, I put them on the shelf, for future use. I had a few different sets made for the 55 chevy 1/4 panel, Model A door, and '65 chevy pickup bed side.
|10-01-2016 12:06 AM|
|tech69||I would use a divider gauge to scribe and cut off enough so you can lay it up against the wheel house while keeping your existing molding holes on the quarter, placing your seam right where the moulding goes but to where you won't have to drill any holes. Then just lay it down and scribe your cut line on the quarter|
|10-01-2016 12:03 AM|
Then you can consider your next move, be it new panel or not. But yes if a stepped flange was flattened, buddy that metals gonna squirm like a fish on a hot sidewalk when the welder hits it. Might not be impossible to work with but in any case this fix is a long row to hoe.
|09-30-2016 08:24 AM|
|Too Many Projects||
Pounding the flange flat on the patch panel was a no-no. That metal was already stretched and pounding it flat again put stress in the whole panel that is being relieved by the cutting and welding process unequally in different areas. Possibly why you couldn't get the wheel arch/opening crown to match up and cut the panel again.
If you cut it loose and can fudge it up enough to end up with a hairline gap for welding, it could be saved. As for the panel clamps, DON'T use them to hold that seam. The panels need to be held in the crown required while tacking and those clamps pull the ends flat, removing the crown before you even start welding. Your pic with the level indicates that may be the problem and can possibly be corrected by cutting the tacks loose and holding the panels by a different method. I have a set of those clamps and they are only useful on perfectly flat panels.
If you can't get the fit and gap where you want/need it, personally, as a novice, I would order a new patch, leave the flange, as you may need that to reach the original metal, and start over. You can then use the drill screws to hold it in place for fitting. My feeling about cutting the existing tacks and pushing the panels out where they need to be is that will possibly leave too wide a gap to weld properly, which would then require a backer strip. If you're going to get involved with all that, may as well get a new panel.
Drill screws really are your friend. As Mike pointed out, I don't see any holding the panel in place on the inner structures, IE, lower trunk drop and inner wheel house flange. I would use the screws to hold the panel in place on those areas first. Once you have that firm, and repeatable location determined, you fit the panel to the seam.
We don't have years of experience and skills like Mike and IDJ to be able to correct this situation and have the outcome we desire. A couple hundred dollars is still an inexpensive learning lesson, compared with extensive body work to correct an improperly installed patch. I payed my dues several years ago, cutting a patch too small and getting very frustrated trying to save and make it fit and look right. After MANY hours of frustration, I threw the panel in the trunk and walked away for six months. I bought a new panel in the mean time and when I went back to it, the new panel was fit in a few hours.
As always, this is only anther DIY beginners opinion on what I see here. Sorry for the novel, but seeing you struggle with this brings back many hours of memories of the same things I have gone thru and continue to come up against. At least the experience I've gained over the years of trial and error have helped me recognize issues and resolve them better and faster now. Stay with it, keep posting pics and asking for opinions and you'll get the result you want in the end.
|09-28-2016 07:13 AM|
|deadbodyman||When you use screws The patch goes in the exact same place every time in seconds. I must have removed and replaced these patches 100 times before they were ready to weld. When you start welding you put a tack between the screw tabs to secure it then using a thin cut off wheel you slice off the tab and put a tack there. perfect but joint every time. because its cut last NOT first. an overlap joint is what you start with so you have something to hold the screws.|
|09-28-2016 06:55 AM|
You worry TOO much, first get the rest of the panel tacked.
Another patch panel will be the same anyway, those are only a "close enough" panels. You make IT fit the car not the car fit IT
If you had screwed that panel on you could just remove it and flatten it out then screw it back on as many times as it took to get it right. You also would have eliminated the question (did my welding cause this).
How do you use screws to hold a patch when using a but joint ?
heres some pics to help you out.
|09-27-2016 09:50 PM|
So is the repair panel crowned too much, or did the side of the car shrink? I cant tell if I should cut the tacks and reposition, or just start hammering. The side of the car feels to my hand like the crown went out of it.
I may have to make some cardboard templates of the passenger side to judge what is going on. Worst case, I cut the car too high, but I could fix that with another EMS panel...
|09-27-2016 09:41 PM|
|idrivejunk||Man thats a lot of crown. I think most of it is in the patch being too crowned too close to the seam. But that seam needs to move out. No need to split hairs though, theres no denying that plenty of filler will be needed. Anybody would have to rely on it somewhat in this scenario. Its kind of a toughy from the looks of it.|
|09-27-2016 09:34 PM|
|Chiphead||The passenger side which has not been worked on....|
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