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Topic Review (Newest First)
05-23-2019 07:08 PM
BogiesAnnex1 I'm talking to the requirements of grounding for extreme energy ignitions. They use very high voltages and severe wave forms not lazy DC currects nor that slow 60 cycle ocean wave shaped stuff in our homes ; but rather something more like "wham, bam, thank you mam" stuff that gets in, gets done, gets out. If it has trouble finding guound after it fired the spark plugs it is happy to take what it can get which often is back through the circuitry of the Hall sensor or signal amp of the distributor or the 6AL type high voltage capacitor discharge amp usually hung on the firewall. If it does that the smoke leaks put of the components then things get real quiet. Keeping up on these high energy slammng wave shaped hits the plugs are taking is just insurance against the sudden quiet followed by wallet drainng sucking sounds.

This advice can be found in the MSD instruction sheet, I just run a mop-up operation for those who didnt heed the word of MSD or bought an equally powerful import rendition that doesn't include this warning about top end grounds.


Bogie
05-23-2019 03:13 PM
55 Tony
Quote:
Originally Posted by BogiesAnnex1 View Post
These greases like engine oil and coolant have sacrificial compounds that prevent corrosion but this isnt a forever thing, they have to be cleaned and relubed maybe once a year or so.

Bogie

Holy crap! How is it that cars run for 20, 30, or more years without getting these connections cleaned and greased every year? And the billions of aluminum conductor connections for home and business electrical power, out in the rain for god knows how many years? Sure one goes bad now and then, but most of them never need servicing.
05-23-2019 01:36 PM
BogiesAnnex1 Sevetal brands one I usea lot is NoOx

https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-c...lubricant.html

Given youre using studs lack of top endgrpund maynot be the issue, but I 've had this on SBF's which use a blind hole on head fasteners so well maybe even on Dart blocks.

I use studs as well on Frankenmouse given back in my active shop days it ran a lot of experiments that often required head changes. So it seemed wise to take the twist loads off the block threads. The block is just an 880 Vortec 4 bolt so the threaded holes are open to the cooling jackets. The studs are epoxied in so while I haven't measured resistances I'm assuming it isnt good enough for an AL6 boosted ignition box, therefore, I run independent grounds on the heads and intake. Nothing super special just number 10 insulated hookup wire with ring ends and heat shrink tube to protect the crimp joint. I pick up an unused accessory bolt hole on each head and the intake, often that on the intake is the distributor's stud or bolt. I wire one head and the intake both to which ever head is closest or easiest to wire to chassis or battery ground.

Conductive greases are not perfect conductors they usually publish their resistance in ohms per centimeter, but neither is corrosion a good conductor. These greases like engine oil and coolant have sacrificial compounds that prevent corrosion but this isnt a forever thing, they have to be cleaned and relubed maybe once a year or so.

Bogie
05-23-2019 07:02 AM
55 Tony
Quote:
Originally Posted by 36 sedan View Post

Thanks 36. That first one is a bit confusing. It says "conductive" but if you read down it says it isn't, and tests show that grease with metals in them actually impede electrical contact. But it says it breaks through aluminum oxide (chemically?) and sounds like good stuff. Second one sounds good too. I believe the zinc is sacrificial so it oxidizes before air can get to the connection.
Anyway I'm certain either one would help make a good connection lasts longer, I simply haven't found a need for it. The stuff I've seen is just a clear jelly type stuff. That's what the power company used when they moved a pole and had to splice aluminum, and when splicing the aluminum wires going to my garage.
05-22-2019 06:56 PM
36 sedan
Quote:
Originally Posted by 55 Tony View Post
I looked up alumilux and can't find it.
Sorry used an old name for it;
https://www.sanchem.com/electrical-c...lubricant.html
https://www.gardnerbender.com/en/p/O...idant-Compound
05-22-2019 04:24 PM
55 Tony The only reason I would run my main ground to the aluminum head is just to prove a point that it would work. Aluminum isn't as good a conductor and it has problems oxidizing in open air connections, so I wouldn't use the head for a ground permanently. Just to prove a point that no matter how much thread sealant you put on the bolts will not stop them from making a good electrical connection to the block! Whether it be teflon tape, pipe dope, or thread sealant, it simply will not electrically insulate a tight connection. And as in the previous post, it doesn't make a bit of difference if it's a square wave, a sine wave, or straight DC voltage.



I looked up alumilux and can't find it. What most electricians use on aluminum connections IS NOT conductive. It shields out the elements to stop the aluminum from oxidizing and causing a poor connection. They do make conductive greases, but they are not commonly found in a home wiring, such as where the aluminum mains come into the breaker box from the transformer. That's not conductive grease, none I've seen anyway. Not the grease the electrician used in my house or garage.



I get it, I really do get it. You like ground wires. That's OK in my book, they won't hurt a thing. Again, I was replying to the remark about thread sealant causing a poor electrical connection.
05-22-2019 02:46 PM
36 sedan Everyone has an option on grounds. Fact, if you have done very much welding, you know how parts can get welded by stray currents. You learn quickly to place the ground clamp close to where you’re welding. The same principles apply to our cars. While you could possibly start your motor with your battery ground connected to head with the current conducting through all the motor bolts, the big question is WHY would you want to???

I don’t particularly like the idea of current flowing through my motor’s parts. I have each head grounded separately, my aluminum heads have threaded bracket holes at the rear of each, my intake has a separate ground, my alternator has a separate ground, my radiator, exc (I think you get the idea). I use conductive grease (aka alumalux or similar), the same stuff electricians use to prevent bad connections with aluminum wiring. It is available at any hardware store in the electrical section.

All this may seem like too much to some, but anyone whose seen the damage caused by stray currents knows better. Do what you want I’m okay with that, but myself, it’s grounded, grounded, grounded and grounded....
05-22-2019 02:18 PM
55 Tony The only place I've ever seen a need for conductive grease is on the contact area of a knife type switch. Any old common grease can be used just to avoid corrosion, the grounds will get through the parts that touch just fine. I'll bet I could start and run my car if I removed the block ground and bolted it to the aluminum head instead, in which every bolt has plenty of sealant on. If 12 or so head bolts torqued up to spec can't make a good conductor, with or without sealant, I would just love to see it in person. In fact, I have an ohm meter that goes down to .01 ohms. I'll have to see how much resistance is between the head and the block, and the head to the negative battery terminal.
05-22-2019 01:45 PM
eric32 Bogie I have head studs and since I have a dart shp block they don't have any sealer on them at all and was put in the block dry. All the head bolt holes are blind tapped and don't go into any coolant jackets and that is what is nice about the dart shp block. Now to my ignition box on my petronix box. It hooks up identical like the msd box and I got the main ground of the box going straight to battery and the other smaller ground wire of the box going to the distributor coil inside the cap and then the middle wire on the farthest back of the hei cap I got going to my intake manifold and has always worked.

Now you say you have a ground wire on both of your heads and intake going to a strap that goes to the battery and its a 10 gauge wire. My question is how do you actually have that wired up and sorry for sounding dumb asking and I also have aluminum heads along with intake so where do I get some of that conductive grease at so I can put them on my bolt threads. I assume your using the back of the cylinder heads with one wire going from one head to the other along with a ground wire from the intake bolted up to one of the head bolt grounds then a ground going from there to the battery?
05-22-2019 11:55 AM
BigMo Sounds like pump isnt workin rite. You should dead head at least 5 psi and steady. Get a good pump on there....hi performance carter or similar

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
05-22-2019 11:25 AM
BogiesAnnex1
Quote:
Originally Posted by eric32 View Post
I took my sending unit out to check it over before I even hooked up my line and looked into my tank and it was about as clean as it can get. There was no debris of any kind and even my fuel looked clean. The gas tank is only 5 years old which I know does not mean anything but it was clean inside and there is no restriction in my line at all but I got a new sending unit to throw in just to replace my old one and so at least I can say its all been replaced.

I will have to get to my fuel pump and unhook it from the regulator and see what it says on my gauge without the pressure regulator. I have to get to my ignition box first and would have it installed by now but as my bad luck would have it it was missing the hardware kit which includes the wire hookup that goes under my distributor cap to hookup my box to the magnetic pickup coil so I have to go to summit this Sunday and replace my box then get it hooked up and then see what my other issue is then back to my fuel pressure situation.

Something is going on somewhere as in low speed driving its not smooth and there is a constant sputtering then once you get the rpms up to a higher speed its fine and it was not like that a month ago so I know it can't be carb related as I tried adjusting some things on it and there was no change as it was already set good anyways. I checked my timing and its fine and has not changed and I checked my coil and it checks out still good so it has to be my MSD box as there is nothing else except plug wires which I am replacing but they are not very old at all only about 5 years old but I have a better set to put on just need to cut to length which I have not done before so I am having my Dad show me the ropes on that one this coming Sunday as well.

Will update once I have changed things and see what my pressure does.
MSD boxes demand a lot of top end engine grounds, especially from the SBC and its gooped up head bolts. Each head and the intake should all be wired together from bolt/fastener positions that do not require sealer, only conductive grease to protect the joint from corrosion. This should then go to a good bonded chassis ground or back to the battey's negative terminal.

The MSD generates a very powerful output that is in the form of a square wave. This is very hard to mediate on the ground side via fasteners with sealer and head lubrication. The unresolved ground side currents from the spark plugs will seek ground and if that is insufficient through the fasteners it will go back through the electronics in the distributor and the MSD box. At the minimum it interfers with signal generation, at the extreme the smokes the electronics.

Since the amperage is low this doesn't require a starter sized ground cable, I find a number 10 wire to be sufficient that connects each head, the intake and possibly the distributor then leads off to ground at the chassis or battery. The connections need to be well bonded electrically so that means no paint, sealer or antiseize on the contacting surfaces, conductive electrical grease may be used, however.

The chances that the existing electronic components have sustained damage is high and replacement may be necessary.

Bogie
05-22-2019 08:52 AM
eric32 Just to update everyone I unhooked my mechanical pump from the regulator and it still has only 3 psi just like mentioned and this is the first time I have ever had a mechanical pump put out so little pressure as most of the ones I have gotten put out about 6 psi at the most and when the needle is pumping up and down on the gauge as the pump is working it goes from 2 to 6 psi.

On start up it will show it bouncing up and down from 2 to 5 psi then after a while it steadies at 3 psi. My previous pump was a different carter pump number I got a m4685 and it says 7 psi max on summit which is not always correct but this pump should pump out more then that. The one I had on my old engine was a m6624 and it always had higher pressure then the 4685 so I will be swapping them out and see if that is the fix for just enough pressure without it being just 3 psi but on the other hand I did take it for a drive yesterday after I changed out my wires to test drive and got on it to wide open throttle for at least a decent 1/8 mile romp and no issues what so ever under load of any signs of fuel starvation.

But I will be swapping it out anyway just to see after I get some other things in order.
05-16-2019 06:52 PM
BigMo Regulators do have specific pressure ranges...but i have spec'd out fuel systems before by getting the pump, reg, lines, filters, etc all from various manufacturers w no regard for high pressure or low pressure needs. They seem to be interchangable. I have had issues w not going large enough on the return line and causing restriction and heating the fuel and pump up more than necessary. On a "street" style mech fuel pump a reg is prob overkill unless its a "race" version that is rated to 7-10 psi which will blow the needle out of the seat. I have a mech NASCAR type pump on one of my cars w a reg set at 6-6.5 psi and its good. But im running -8an lines for the volume. Pressure is just to keep the fuel moving under hard accel w a carb set up

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
05-16-2019 08:48 AM
eric32 I took my sending unit out to check it over before I even hooked up my line and looked into my tank and it was about as clean as it can get. There was no debris of any kind and even my fuel looked clean. The gas tank is only 5 years old which I know does not mean anything but it was clean inside and there is no restriction in my line at all but I got a new sending unit to throw in just to replace my old one and so at least I can say its all been replaced.

I will have to get to my fuel pump and unhook it from the regulator and see what it says on my gauge without the pressure regulator. I have to get to my ignition box first and would have it installed by now but as my bad luck would have it it was missing the hardware kit which includes the wire hookup that goes under my distributor cap to hookup my box to the magnetic pickup coil so I have to go to summit this Sunday and replace my box then get it hooked up and then see what my other issue is then back to my fuel pressure situation.

Something is going on somewhere as in low speed driving its not smooth and there is a constant sputtering then once you get the rpms up to a higher speed its fine and it was not like that a month ago so I know it can't be carb related as I tried adjusting some things on it and there was no change as it was already set good anyways. I checked my timing and its fine and has not changed and I checked my coil and it checks out still good so it has to be my MSD box as there is nothing else except plug wires which I am replacing but they are not very old at all only about 5 years old but I have a better set to put on just need to cut to length which I have not done before so I am having my Dad show me the ropes on that one this coming Sunday as well.

Will update once I have changed things and see what my pressure does.
05-15-2019 07:06 PM
alwill923 Just a quick description as I understand mechanical pumps. On mechanical pumps the pressure comes from the spring in the pump. All the push rod does is move the diaphragm against the spring, this is the suction stroke. When the diaphragm is pushed by the spring this is the discharge stroke.


Now for pumps in general, the pressure rating of a pump is the difference between the suction and discharge, not just the discharge Pressure. For example lets say a pump is rated for 6 psi. If a discharge pressure reads 3 psi the suction pressure has to be -3 for a total difference of 6 psi. A mechanical pump on the engine has to suck gas from the tank. If there is a restriction in the suction line (clogged suction filter, sludge in the line, clogged line in tank) or just the friction from the gas through the line the suction pressure will be less than atmospheric (negative pressure) the pressure gauge on the discharge will read less that the rated pressure of the pump. The suction side will usually be less than atmospheric on a mechanical pump as it has to draw the gas through the line from the tank and the pump probably is not lower that the tank to give it a positive pressure.


If you are still having trouble with the mechanical pump disconnect the suction line and blow it out with compressed air all the way back to the tank. If it is clogged in the tank this might give you some temporary relief. If this is the case you will have to clean the tank.


If the suction line is around any heat source you could have vapor lock.


This all I can think of for now!
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