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  #61 (permalink)  
Old 03-19-2010, 08:20 PM
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DMC had a procedure for using the DuPont 224S "ospho" as a step for refinishing the Delorean SS body in Imron polyurethane enamel over 824-S epoxy primer.

The procedure used is on page 6-7 HERE.

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  #62 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:13 AM
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brian, cobalt,

the active ingredients and acid percent mix and use directions for auto metal wash acid "cleaners" are not the same as Ospho....
ingredients ex:
http://www.endura.ca/pdf/MSDS/dx520_galvaprep.pdf

directions ex:
http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheet...tron/P-226.pdf

my $.02:
wrong type acid bases analogy but they behave like toilet bowl cleaner or CLR or even 409,,,detergent with just a bit of acid (DX is only 1-5% acid by volume,,,Ospho is 40%?)

Last edited by red65mustang; 03-20-2010 at 05:43 AM.
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  #63 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:36 AM
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Directions for using DuPont 224S was:

Quote:
Steel Conversion Coating produces a high degree of corrosion resistance & optimum adhesion of paint system. Pour the material in a plastic bucket. Wearing rubber gloves use a "Scotch-Brite" or similar adhesive pad to apply the undiluted material to the treated metal surface.
Leave the conditioner on the surface two to five minutes. Work only as much area as can be coated and rinsed before the solution dries.
Reapply if the surface dries before the rinsing. Flush the coating from the surface with cold water or mop with a damp sponge or cloth rinsed occasionally in clean water. Wipe dry with a clean cloth & allow to air dry. 224-S will impart a gray color to the steel.
So- if Ospho were to be diluted to the same concentration as DuPont 224S, would it then be considered 'safe'?
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Old 03-20-2010, 05:57 AM
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cobalt,
I've only used the DX and didn't look up the other brands mentioned ingredients...

are the ingredients in the Dupont acid cleaner the same as Ospho rust converter????

PS: I fixed the DX ingredients link above,,,do read it,,,it has next to nothing in common with Ospho ingredients...

http://www.ospho.com/data.htm
(msds link at the bottem,,,note it says "base" needed to neutralize)
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  #65 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 06:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
are the ingredients in the Dupont acid cleaner the same as Ospho rust converter????
The active ingredient in DuPont 224S is phosphoric acid.

Quote:
msds link at the bottem,,,note it says "base" needed to neutralize)
?? Those directions contained in the MSDS are for spills- not directions for the use of it.
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  #66 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 07:35 AM
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they have always sold this. since they service the industrial market also. my jobbers no longer even stock it. call ppg , dupont or any of them and ask about using it under their automotive systems. the response will be how important it is to neutralize it properly. if you have a problem forget warranty as it will come down to it wasn't neutralized . they sell this stuff so don't expect them to talk bad about it. bottom line is it is unnecessary in today's paint systems.
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Old 03-20-2010, 08:17 AM
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Information for use of acid on stainless steel isn't necessarily applicable to mild steel. Acid is used on stainless to make the surface less reactive by eating away excess iron at the surface while leaving the nickel and chrome. The cleaned surface will form a protective layer on itself that's about one millionth of an inch thick, somewhat akin to the way bare aluminum forms an oxide on its surface to enhance its own corrosion resistance. I'm no chemist, but I'd make a wild guess that the acid is being used strictly as a cleaner on stainless rather than as a conversion coating.
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  #68 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 08:42 AM
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I'm impressed,we've come a long way in a year,before I get started I'd like to point out one thing...For years we all used etching primer (phosphric acid) for better adhesion(some still do) so, why would it work in a primer and not when scrubbed in? also etching primer doesn't need to be neutralized ,Right?What is in epoxy primer that makes it self etching?(read the ingrediants)... I don't use ospho as an encapsulater,I use it to clean up the heavy rust and might apply it two or three times.I did this old rotted out car just to show what can be done...Nothing has been sand blasted ,I wanted to keep what ever metal was leftI used a 4" wire wheel over the heavy stuffand a scuff pad on everything else. I use Ospho on every car I strip and have never had a problem with it.I thought everybody used it until last year when I joined HR...."NOBODY" can tell me it doest work but as with all other materials they can be missused...There lays the problems.....I know it works,thats why I use it...I don't have any ulterior motives for suggesting this product or any others, I use, its just that Over the many years I've been restoring cars(professionally) I've found some products that stand head & shoulders above the rest and more than a few that arnt worth buying...and I make it known which are which...I'm at a little disadvantage here because I only learned to type and use a digital camera a year ago but I have had the wife convert some old film pics to digital so I could post them.heres what can be done with Ospho and epoxy primer(any epoxy,but I like spi)..... some of this car like the 1/4's have been done for over five years the roof has been done over two and as you can see it hasn't bubbled up or fallin off or started rusting again in the eight years since my son and I started it..Imo ,Ospho not only works ,But in my opinion,its the only way to do an old car with rust.I'm sorry but I don't have any pics of te car when I brought it home,just these after I sub-framed it.Why would I do all this work with a product I wasnt sure of ????
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  #69 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 09:06 AM
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This car stays outside and has only epoxy primer on it Heres a few to show it when its been rained on ....I should update my journal when I have more time and would be more than happy to answer any questions through PM....Jon, let me know when a wiki gets going I'll see what I can add....I will start a how to video as soon as I have the time....Mike
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  #70 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 11:09 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
they have always sold this. since they service the industrial market also. my jobbers no longer even stock it. call ppg , dupont or any of them and ask about using it under their automotive systems. the response will be how important it is to neutralize it properly. if you have a problem forget warranty as it will come down to it wasn't neutralized . they sell this stuff so don't expect them to talk bad about it. bottom line is it is unnecessary in today's paint systems.

It is NOT part of any warranty that I know of. We have a lifetime warranty backed by the paint company we use and don't have any of it in the shop as all our painters are trained to use the system in the lifetime warranty program.

And to give you an idea of how serious these companies are in this warranty. We had changed our paint over to SIKKENS and a while later we had a truck come back in with a failed clear. This truck was painted with S-W almost TEN years ago. It was a basic delam and the S-W rep came out and looked it over and gave us the ok to repair it and they will be paying the bill, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. This was about a $3500 job!

Try THAT 10 years later with one brand of clear over another brand of paint! Who is going to pay for that? No one is the answer.

It pays to stick with one system start to finish and follow the tech sheets.

Brian

Last edited by MARTINSR; 03-20-2010 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 03-20-2010, 11:14 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
cobalt,
I've only used the DX and didn't look up the other brands mentioned ingredients...

are the ingredients in the Dupont acid cleaner the same as Ospho rust converter????

PS: I fixed the DX ingredients link above,,,do read it,,,it has next to nothing in common with Ospho ingredients...

http://www.ospho.com/data.htm
(msds link at the bottem,,,note it says "base" needed to neutralize)
There are other "converters" or what ever they are such as:
DuPont 225S, S-W W4K288, PPG DX533. "Metal cleaners"

Or DuPont 5717S, S-W W4K288, BASF 801, PPG DX579 "Steel Cleaners" (?)

Brian
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  #72 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 11:47 AM
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Did I mention I guarantee my Rust repair work????? also my paint work,and that I don't use a paint system, never have....when I strip a car I use aircraft stripper,ospho,whatever wax & grease remover I have around,spi epoxy,sometimes a urethane primer(one of three brands),I dont like sealers,chroma base,spi clear...I havent had any problems yet...I only guarantee what I strip on full paint jobs...
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  #73 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 03:07 PM
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Seems like the next step is to get an on-the-record answer from the major finish manufacturers as to the status of such products in their product line, and their guidelines and/or warnings for using them for automotive applications.

We know that SPI explicitly warns against such treatments in their epoxy primer tech sheet, and that link can be referenced in the wiki article. If anyone knows of links to any other manufacturers' online tech sheets that specifically mention acid prep treatments, please post them in this thread.
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  #74 (permalink)  
Old 03-20-2010, 05:34 PM
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Heres an oldie but a goodie.....https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/comp...pho-74054.html...I googled "ospho" and found a whole bunch of info Including the link above. lol

Last edited by deadbodyman; 03-20-2010 at 05:45 PM.
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Old 03-21-2010, 07:14 AM
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cobalt,
if I'm reading this dupont metal "treatments" msds correct,,,it is not the same active ingredients as Ospho...
(phosphoric acid is only one ingredient of many in the Dupont acid products)

http://pc.dupont.com/dpc/en/US/html/...C_16-0_RFN.pdf

just my <$.01:
I couldn't find a msds for 224-s specifically,,,
and ONLY for the idea,,,,DX and 224-s and the others are formulated so that just water does/will neutralize the surface (they suspend the minor amount of acid with something)....
use instructions all say rinse rinse rinse with clean water,,,don't ever let it dry on surface,,,to then have a neutral dry surface...

instructions say must be epoxied IMMEDIATELY because the reason you used a acid wash like DX is to kill any micro-rust and leave some sacrificial zinc and zinc phosphate on the surface...
(subject for a different thread)

treating a stainless steel surface to get epoxy to adhere is not removing three types of iron oxide pitted rust off of a stressed/formed mild steel old car....
(the 224-s is only 7% by weight unspecified concentration of phosphoric and that's not going to cut thru heavy rust)

go back and read the Dupont DMC instructions again and you will see they did first treat the stainless with a strong acid mix product 5717 (ingredients in the msds link),,,to etch the surface so the epoxy had "something" to grab onto,,,followed by the acid cleaner 224-s for a "for sure" neutral surface....
(JOKE is the dupont 5717-s TDS says NEVER use it on stainless!!!!)

stainless is a world unto itself,,,apples to oranges compared to rolled steel which will rust...

TOTALLY agree with Barry: "leave the acids in the lab"....
to easy to mis-interpet and mis-read what you do read like this DMC example....

the DMC article does not say use "Ospho" which is the subject of this thread...

Last edited by red65mustang; 03-21-2010 at 07:43 AM.
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