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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 03-22-2010, 08:40 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
cobalt,
if I'm reading this dupont metal "treatments" msds correct,,,it is not the same active ingredients as Ospho...
(phosphoric acid is only one ingredient of many in the Dupont acid products)
The linked info is not the MSDS for DuPont 224S. 224S is 7% w/w phosphoric acid w/2% w/w ZnO- which isn't "active", AFAIK. The remainder is water.

The MSDS for DuPont 224S is HERE.

DuPont's 5717S is "half strength" Ospho (37% w/w with 0.05% chromic acid in an alky carrier instead of straight water.

But the question remains: If phosphoric acid is used, diluted to the amount that is shown to be contained in the DuPont products- be it by 1/2 the strength of 'Ospho' brand phosphoric acid of DuPont 5717S followed by the weaker 224S phosphoric acid solution, followed by their epoxy primer and a topcoat of Imron- can it be said to be safe to use as stated?

That the surface is SS or mild steel is moot, AFA the amount of acid remaining after following their recommendations. By following their recommendations, mild steel shouldn't be any more likely to "hold onto" phosphoric acid any more (or less) than SS.

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 03-23-2010, 07:14 AM
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cobalt,
I was wrong,,,never used dupont 224s,,,it is a metal "coater" type treatment,,,not a "cleaner" like 5717 or DX...

basically you soak and scrub till there is a totally uniform grey coated surface (ospho has no zinc to form zinc phosphate)...

LOL,,,
here's the Dupont conflicts with their own instructions in the DMC stainless article I have found so far:
5717 TDS says NEVER use on stainless...
Corlar 824-S Epoxy TDS says NOT for use on stainless but DO use 5717 cleaner treatment and says nothing about using 224s coating treatment as a final step...

yup, good grief,,, that 1982 Dupont bulletin/article begs for a phone call to Dupont tech!!!!
(but we have never painted a Delorean so maybe it works for that specific stainless application)

Last edited by red65mustang; 03-23-2010 at 07:57 AM.
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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 03-24-2010, 03:58 PM
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Wiki article is here: Phosphoric acid as metal pretreatment.

Feel free to edit/update/correct as necessary.
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2010, 06:41 AM
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Jon,
Does your Phosphoric wiki link above mean Mr. Pitcher has chosen not to reply to any questions?????
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:34 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
Jon,
Does your Phosphoric wiki link above mean Mr. Pitcher has chosen not to reply to any questions?????
Where do you get that from, red?

The only time (to my knowledge) that he was contacted by anyone from this forum, was by xpsyclonex2002 on 02-24-10, HERE, where he seemed (to me) to be forthcoming- and he also offered additional info if it was desired.

Have there been other contacts w/him that have resulted in him being non responsive- to YOUR knowledge?
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Old 03-25-2010, 07:56 AM
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cobalt,
re-read Jon's post #50....

and his subsequent posts 56-58-73 are what to ask him next for input as to how/what the wiki should say...
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Old 03-25-2010, 08:07 AM
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This is what was said:
Quote:
I opened up a dialogue with Stephen L. Pitcher, the aforementioned technical director at Ospho. He said that he doesn't have time to regularly monitor the forum and chip in. However, he said that he can answer questions on-the-record that I send him via email.
Has he been emailed- and not answered- any questions?
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  #83 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2010, 08:15 AM
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IMO,First off, saying Ospho is phosphoric acid is like saying etching primer is phosphoric acid, sure, its the main ingredient just like tomatoes are the main ingredient in ketchup ,but they're not quite the same thing are they.I did a search on "ospho" and asked a question a few days ago at www.ospho.com .Ive been in contact a couple times with the man as it turns out hes quite a car buff and his daily driver is a tri power 67 GTO...So after reading reading reds question and, "Mr pitchers" name I went back to see who it was I was talking with... low and behold it was Mr. pitcher.....I'm sure if Red takes the time to do the same ,he'll find Mr.Pitcher very informative I'm sure he could answer all his questions better than I ,I only use the product and have little knowledge of how and why it works ...its always been enough for me just knowing it works..I'm finishing up a couple jobs and hope to have enough time to get started on my rusted vinyl top I'll document everything and do a few of these tests we were talking about...and show the whole process start to finish....PS,I'd give the e-mail address but I've been told not to give mine out because of scammers ,so I dont want to give anyone elses either,if anyone wants it just PM me.

Last edited by deadbodyman; 03-25-2010 at 08:21 AM.
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  #84 (permalink)  
Old 03-25-2010, 02:37 PM
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I haven't yet emailed Stephen Pitcher with our specific questions. I delayed it because it seems we're still hashing out some issues here before we get the official word from Ospho.

deadbodyman -- thanks for adding to the wiki. I did some cleanup and reorganizing on it today. Feel free to add, update, etc. I suspect the article will go through hundreds of revisions before it's up to snuff, and approved by both sides of this debate. You can always edit anonymously, but, if you want, you can also login to the wiki, and your edits will be credited to your username.

The wiki article still needs:

--More details on Ospho and manufacturer warranties, as brought up by MARTINSR.

--More published, on-the-record positions from paint and epoxy manufacturers (like the one we have from SPI).

--Details on other phosphoric acid metal pretreatments, not just Ospho.

--Examination of the nuances between Ospho and naval jelly: concentrations of phosphoric acid in the two products, why keeping naval jelly wet is beneficial, and examination of how phosphoric acid is "suspended" throughout naval jelly, as red65mustang mentioned.

--Details on existing or legacy products from major paint manufacturers that include phosphoric acid.

--Q&A with Stephen Pitcher.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 08:42 AM
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Jon,
my $.02:
your wiki article content plan is too "global"...
ex:
ingredients and use instructions for Naval Jelly are not the same as Ospho...
Naval Jelly MSDS:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Vis...NavalJelly.pdf

none of the acid treatments mentioned so far in this thread have the same ingredients and/or use instructions etc...

the problem with acid treatments is not testing the treated surface for compatibility and doing epoxy bond testing!!!

there are ASTM and MIL spec procedures (for specific brand products) for acid treating metals and testing the surface and testing epoxy bond....

Randy's article is well written for using acid treatment,,,it just didn't go far enough...
the article didn't go onto explain the precautionary test steps needed to insure bond success!!!

"fair chance" Mr. Pitcher can supply that testing info for your wiki....
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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 09:12 AM
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But I can, have and will.....you can bet on that.....As far as the Ospho goes,but I have no idea about any other types of phosphric solutions or brands....I've never been happy with any of the others I've tried like "rust mort" for instance...

Last edited by deadbodyman; 03-26-2010 at 09:25 AM.
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Old 03-26-2010, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
Jon,
my $.02:
your wiki article content plan is too "global"...
ex:
ingredients and use instructions for Naval Jelly are not the same as Ospho...
Naval Jelly MSDS:
http://www.brown.edu/Departments/Vis...NavalJelly.pdf

none of the acid treatments mentioned so far in this thread have the same ingredients and/or use instructions etc...

the problem with acid treatments is not testing the treated surface for compatibility and doing epoxy bond testing!!!

there are ASTM and MIL spec procedures (for specific brand products) for acid treating metals and testing the surface and testing epoxy bond....

Randy's article is well written for using acid treatment,,,it just didn't go far enough...
the article didn't go onto explain the precautionary test steps needed to insure bond success!!!

"fair chance" Mr. Pitcher can supply that testing info for your wiki....
Hey Red,How about instead of asking everyone else to do everything and offering to tell us how to do it, you do a little something yourself....your knowledge of all things and vast experience in the industry would be a big help making the wiki.....I'm sure you can find the time and a few dollars to do a few tests yourself and post your results....Personally "I KNOW it works" and have no need to prove it... its only because of people that cast doubt on the subject by talking about products they have no clue on, that I feel the need to set this matter right.So pitch in a little with your own time and money,if thats asking to much ,there's always (fair chance)a 1.00 donation to the "free speech lawsuit" will get you a little respect .. You do believe in your right to free speech. don't you? Remember,, just like at work,your only a good helper if your helping..Heres your change Back $00.02
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Old 03-26-2010, 02:33 PM
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red65mustang -- thanks, we can work on that. It will likely be a long time before the article is up to snuff. We can also split it out to multiple different articles, add sections for different phosphoric acid products, etc. Even the term "article" is misleading on a wiki, as it implies a finite presentation of info. Sometimes "entry" or "page" is used instead of "article".

I just added that MSDS you posted to the naval jelly section of the article, and we can expand on that point.

I know that this issue gets discussed a lot, and all we really have to show for it is various long threads. If we keep at it, we can get it all on one solid page in the wiki, so it's easier for new users to digest.

deadbodyman -- even if you're 100% correct that it works perfectly for you, 100% of the time, your testimonial still only constitutes anecdotal evidence. At this point, you can strengthen your position by aggregating some third-party scientific data. I wouldn't be surprised to find out that there is some industrial or military data on the use of phosphoric acid-based products on metal. If you can find that data, we can reference it in the wiki. Also, the whole point of this is to further enjoyment in this hobby, and to help people out. So, please be nice
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Last edited by Jon; 03-26-2010 at 02:40 PM. Reason: clarity
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  #89 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 02:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
"fair chance" Mr. Pitcher can supply that testing info for your wiki....
I'm puzzled by your obvious disdain for this Picher fellow- is there some underlying issues involved? I mean, on several occasions now, you've insinuated that he's somehow less than forthright. I, for one, (who has NO ax to grind in any of this- except for my own edification) do not see the man in this light, whatsoever. In fact, I see him as a (probably) very busy guy doing his best to answer any questions that have been put to him- which if I understand Jon correctly- he has not been yet asked.

I seem to remember you replying to me (in another thread) after my suggestion that you submit something to the Wiki, that you don't make such submissions. Am I remembering this correctly? Because, instead of merely sitting back and directing the show, you might consider getting down "into the trenches" as it were, and donating an edit or submission or two.

It's not like YOUR words are any more 'precious' than anyone else's... or are they?
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Old 03-26-2010, 04:52 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cobalt327
Where do you get that from, red?

The only time (to my knowledge) that he was contacted by anyone from this forum, was by xpsyclonex2002 on 02-24-10, HERE, where he seemed (to me) to be forthcoming- and he also offered additional info if it was desired.

Have there been other contacts w/him that have resulted in him being non responsive- to YOUR knowledge?
While Mr. Pitcher was not evasive with his response to me, he did not clearly settle the issue. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth. He said that his product was compatible with all paints then said test it to be sure. That isn't exactly iron clad.
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