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  #91 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 04:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpsyclonex2002
While Mr. Pitcher was not evasive with his response to me, he did not clearly settle the issue. He spoke out of both sides of his mouth. He said that his product was compatible with all paints then said test it to be sure. That isn't exactly iron clad.
I'm not sure that qualifies as speaking out of both sides of his mouth- but semantics aside, if you're looking for "iron clad", IMO you're not going to get it from ANY of the manufacturers of metal treatment or coatings, w/o a proviso to test first.

There are just too many variables- combinations of chemicals and procedures- for ANY manufacturer to have tried everything, don't you think?

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  #92 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 04:28 PM
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good god. do any of you know how confusing this bs is ? this thread has no use what so ever . a simple question is asked and it turns into all this mess. i don't know what you think anyone from ospho is going to say besides use my product. you want to know i would suggest you contact the paint mfg you are going to use. it is the only opinion that counts.
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  #93 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 04:42 PM
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cobalt,
your post directed to me doesn't contribute technically to this thread,,,a PM would have been nice...

why is my wording choice showing disdain for Mr Pitcher???
Jon has been very clear that he wants mfgr direct info input for his wiki...
I have no clue for what Mr Pitcher does/does not know about testing procedures and/or can divulge publically....

re:wiki's
If you want to contribute to wiki's that anyone at any time for any reason in the future can alter/change/add/delete to your info anonymously go for it...
I only do posts on this board because then only Jon, a moderator, and/or me can edit/alter what I do write...
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  #94 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
If you want to contribute to wiki's that anyone at any time for any reason in the future can alter/change/add/delete to your info anonymously go for it...
I only do posts on this board because then only Jon, a moderator, and/or me can edit/alter what I do write...
Well, I do "go for it," FWIW. The same format is used for the entire Wikipedia- I'm sure you've referred to it in the past- it assures that by peer review, bad info is weeded out. A pretty damn good "process", IMHO.

AFA PM's go- if I'm gonna say it- I will say it right here.

And if technical merit were the sole requirement for placing a post, well, let's just say there's not enough moderators on the 'net to sift through them all. And this (and every) forum would become a pretty boring, sterile place, IMHO. Little if any of the info contained here, is absolutely unavailable elsewhere- in manuals, manufacturer's websites and tech lines, etc. It's as much entertainment, IMO, than it is cut and dried technicalities.

Where would you start the process of censorship- with what you consider "irrelevant"? Or technically incorrect threads? Or threads that didn't meet some "standards"?

I can show you literally dozens of threads that have very relevant info in them, that started out as a post that- if judged on its technical "merits"- would not have made the cut. Other threads w/the same type posts in them, served to start a 'conversation' that resulted in a WEALTH of info.

So please, no censoring.
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  #95 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 05:14 PM
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I'm sorry Jon, but that was me trying to be nice.I edited that four times. my point was made. I'll just ignore the comments made by the ones that dont use the stuff and respond to the ones that want to know or want to learn.I realize your doing something productive here and will help with what I do know first hand and not let all the hearsay side track me.
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  #96 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:12 PM
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Jon,
here's the TDS for Naval Jelly...

http://www.permatex.com/documents/td...tive/81756.pdf

do note the iron clad total disclaimer clause on the Naval Jelly TDS....
there is a similar iron clad disclaimer clause on the bottem of the Dupont "treatments" products MSDS link I posted...
Ospho has one as well...

those disclaimers need to be clearly stated in your wiki...

"ET CAVEAT EMPTOR!!!!"
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  #97 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 06:43 PM
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novice observation

Just curious here....As a total novice, as Shine points out this is very confusing. I think anyone at my level of inexperience and budget, is always looking for good products and methods available to the home DIYer. I've read in a number of threads here the concerns of people expressing dislike for acid products, however, I haven't seen any pictures documenting disasterous results. DEAD has shared pics showing his use of OSPHO and his very lengthy history of success. I love the idea of the Wiki, as I've read a number of them. But honestly, as Jon accurately labeled DEAD's testimonial as anecdotal, that is what most of us rely on for most advice; "how did this product work for you?". I agree with SHINE and others, OSPHO and others will never tell you not to use their products. To me, what I would most like to see instead of two sides arguing a point, please post pics of what you used it on and how it did or didn't work. I ,the user, assume all liablilities anyway, so in addition to a Wiki, can't we have an OSPHO board where people share their PROVEN personal experiences without any personal comments.....I mean really aren't all the comments I've read about SPI products merely anecdotal? I'm extremely grateful to the people who voice well thought out reservations and concerns, but I will always give more credibility to the guys that have had their hands on the product. If I can't afford a do-over on something, I simply don't risk it.
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  #98 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:09 PM
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Common product liability clauses aside, and to provide full(er) disclosure, what Permatex does ALSO say (in red's link to Naval Jelly, above), is:

Quote:
NOT FOR PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS.
THE TECHNICAL DATA CONTAINED HEREIN ARE INTENDED AS REFERENCE ONLY.
PLEASE CONTACT PERMATEX, INC., TECHNICAL SERVICE DEPARTMENT FOR ASSISTANCE AND RECOMMENDATIONS FOR YOUR SPECIFIC APPLICATION.
PERMATEX, INC., HARTFORD SQUARE NORTH, 10 COLUMBUS BOULEVARD, HARTFORD, CT 06106 PHONE (1-87PERMATEX)
(bold mine)

Product liability clauses are commonplace- the actual clause is for EVERY Permatex product made- not just Naval Jelly.
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  #99 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hwyhogg
Just curious here....As a total novice, as Shine points out this is very confusing. I think anyone at my level of inexperience and budget, is always looking for good products and methods available to the home DIYer. I've read in a number of threads here the concerns of people expressing dislike for acid products, however, I haven't seen any pictures documenting disasterous results. DEAD has shared pics showing his use of OSPHO and his very lengthy history of success. I love the idea of the Wiki, as I've read a number of them. But honestly, as Jon accurately labeled DEAD's testimonial as anecdotal, that is what most of us rely on for most advice; "how did this product work for you?". I agree with SHINE and others, OSPHO and others will never tell you not to use their products. To me, what I would most like to see instead of two sides arguing a point, please post pics of what you used it on and how it did or didn't work. I ,the user, assume all liablilities anyway, so in addition to a Wiki, can't we have an OSPHO board where people share their PROVEN personal experiences without any personal comments.....I mean really aren't all the comments I've read about SPI products merely anecdotal? I'm extremely grateful to the people who voice well thought out reservations and concerns, but I will always give more credibility to the guys that have had their hands on the product. If I can't afford a do-over on something, I simply don't risk it.
The fact that the issue is so confusing and spirited is why I , as a noob, wanted to get to the bottom of it. That is why I originally contacted the manufacturers. I thought that I had the issue pretty much settled, as in "don't do it," at least with SPI for sure. DBM and a few others are sticking to thier guns based on thier experiances that say that you can get away with it. I spoke specifically to SPI's rep and he gave me specific times when he has seen failures from using OSPHO. The most difficult thing for me was that he said that the issue wouldn't revel itself until you are done and the money spent and effort put out. He gave me a test to try on my car because I had already made the mistake. I did exactly what he told me and got the exact results he told me I would. My epoxy lifted in chunks as big as a 50 cent peice with little effort. Point proved, case closed. I felt strongly enough about it to strip my car back to bare metal. I didn't see anybody else a** on this board who told me it was OK to do out thier helping me and I don't suspect that they will be there to help anybody else. If they feel as strongly about it as they talk, maybe they should pay to fix your car when it does go wrong. Fat chance on that one. Advice on this board is worth what you pay for it.
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  #100 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:47 PM
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And Yes, Shine, this thread has stepped into the bizzaro world. It has been rendered useless.
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  #101 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 07:56 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpsyclonex2002
And Yes, Shine, this thread has stepped into the bizzaro world. It has been rendered useless.
This "bizzaro" thread has served to get a Wiki started, along w/the basic questions (and surely other questions yet to be worded) to be asked to those involved on the manufacturing end.

"Bizzaro"? Maybe.

Useless? HARDLY!!!
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  #102 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 08:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shine
good god. do any of you know how confusing this bs is ? this thread has no use what so ever . a simple question is asked and it turns into all this mess. i don't know what you think anyone from ospho is going to say besides use my product. you want to know i would suggest you contact the paint mfg you are going to use. it is the only opinion that counts.
Thats to bad....
I really like Duponts chroma base so I took your advice and asked them about using other brands of primer with their base they said they don't recommend using SPI epoxy under their Base or SPI universal clear over their base....DANG!!!!! I really liked SPI too...since I ALWAYS listen to what the paint manufactures say I guess I'll have to switch to that hard sanding primer and clearDupont makes and pay a lot more money because I certainly cant think for myself ........QUOTE,"i would suggest you contact the paint mfg you are going to use. it is the only opinion that counts". .....PLEEEESE Shine, do you really believe that? Go ask Dupont what I just did see what THAT "paint manufacture" says WE both know that statement is total BS...(with capitol letters) The only time thier opinion counts is when its your cash in thier pockets and they're counting it.....Thats one reason they say things like "we dont recomend" instead of "NEVER use any other products with ours" I will agree with one thing a manufacture said "Steve" (the ospho guy)You SHOULD test something to make sure it works,Thats not talking out both sides of your mouth thats just common sense, you may have done something wrong.PEOPLE MAKE MISTAKES...especially if your new to a certain product.(I primed a whole car with no hardener when I was just starting out)Any pro that says he never did something like that is lying and if most are like me they've done it way more than just once. I also made the mistake a long time ago of putting bondo over ospho.I worked all day doing bodywork...although it stuck well enough to sand .when I blew it off and the air caught a thin feathered edge some of the bondo blew off .on closer inspection and picking at it I found it wasn't sticking well at all ,so I pulled it all off by sliding a putty knife under it and epoxied it..if I had just tested it first I wouldn't have wasted a whole day.So Now ,after stripping something, I treat with ospho and epoxy then do bodywork (filler/bondo) No problems ...Just a note... bondo doesnt stick to acid base ,self etching primers either (like vari-prime) when I did the test of putting bondo on my ospho treated,epoxied steel, where you put a plop of bondo on and after it drys you pop it off with a hammer and chisel, the bondo pulled off the epoxy and the epoxy stayed put but that was unsanded and completely cured SPI epoxy.I always sand epoxy before applying bondo.but I would like to know what would happen when I sand it first so I'll include that in a test. Of course,I'll have to do the same test with untreated epoxied steel also ,sanded AND unsanded.... I've heard it said that you dont have to sand epoxy before applying bondo,I totally disagree with that too.
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  #103 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 10:00 PM
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I did the test with the bondo blobs over the OSPHO treated epoxied steel. The epoxy was unsanded before the bondo was applied. 1 hour after the bondo dried I pried up on the edge with a screwdriver. It took the dried blob and the epoxy, the whole circle under the blob off in one motion down to bare steel. Not just once, but at every location I tested, aproximately 10 locations. i took pictures but they are too large of a file to post and I don't know how to shrink them.
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  #104 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 10:29 PM
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I see two members have had some bad results...You guys did something wrong...I'll bet the epoxy wasn't cured and the ospho was applied wrong and prepped for primer wrong... So ask ME sometime how to do it right, and I'll tell you, how it can be done right you've already been told how to do it wrong and got the results doing it wrong will get you, what did you expect?.being a newbie why would you ask someone that doesn't use a certain product how to use that product ? wouldn't it be better to ask someone that uses the product and swears by it? HWY,when I read your post I tried to tell you how to do it but you didn't listen ... you made every possible mistake because there was so many people trying to tell you all kinds of stuff... so I just gave up and told you to sand it off and forget about using this stuff..Remember? I did the same test my way and it worked fine.... I would never suggest you could "get away with something" its got to work well or i wont suggest using it.....you already know it stops the rust from coming back thats why you used it in the first place...at least that part was a success..... It would be far less confusing if anyone wants to try this stuff to just PM me for instructions ,it'll be far less confusing with out all the BS on the side.It's so simple to use I cant understand how anyone could mess it up but then again ,I think painting a car is pretty simple too and after listening to me explain how to paint (over the phone) other members didn't think it was that hard either but man were they ever confused at first. ............Just to clarify and get back on track..........There's three reasons for using Ospho.....1.to dissolve ,neutralize pitted rust and remove heavy surface rust and keep it from coming back without the mess of and experience needed for sandblasting...........2. on a striped car (blasted or chemical stripped) To keep a bare metal car from rusting until you can get it primed........So far its up to this next part that everyone gets confused.there's no doubt it does all this so far.right? at this point it can be easily sanded off before priming (the metal is very clean and no rust....maybe I should only recommend using ospho up to this point ,just sand it off with 180 and prime.You'll be amazed how clean the steel is... 3. it etches and cleans untrusted steel for better adhesion of primers ....it has to be sanded or at least scuffed then wiped down with W&G remover ,do a test to see if you got it right or just sand it off .....its still etched...and much cleaner than anything else I've ever tried.

Last edited by deadbodyman; 03-26-2010 at 10:35 PM.
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  #105 (permalink)  
Old 03-26-2010, 11:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpsyclonex2002
I did the test with the bondo blobs over the OSPHO treated epoxied steel. The epoxy was unsanded before the bondo was applied. 1 hour after the bondo dried I pried up on the edge with a screwdriver. It took the dried blob and the epoxy, the whole circle under the blob off in one motion down to bare steel. Not just once, but at every location I tested, aproximately 10 locations. i took pictures but they are too large of a file to post and I don't know how to shrink them.
Did you also do the same test with an untreated piece(a control) to know for sure if its not a primer problem? You need a control to do a proper experiment..was the steel sanded or unsanded?was the steel cleaned with wax & grease remover before you started? E-coated metal is no good with this, regular sheet metal is what you want, not a hood of a newer car....how long did your epoxy cure how do you know it was cured what kind of epoxy?Did you scuff then use a wax & grease remover on the dry ospho?how do you know the Ospho was dry?(I use 320 sandpaper if it clogs with little balls its not dry ,even if it feels dry(its the only way to be sure there's a lot to know to do a proper experiment....Maybe I should use this as my resume to skyco ,I should get paid for this ,I wonder what they pay.....Steve, I'm after your job....Watch out....And I don't use a brush when I paint.

Last edited by deadbodyman; 03-26-2010 at 11:39 PM.
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