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  #121 (permalink)  
Old 04-01-2010, 10:59 PM
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Thanks red65mustang -- added new links and details to the wiki article. Here's the latest version: Phosphoric acid as metal pretreatment.

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  #122 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2010, 07:03 AM
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a good picture example (courtesy of DBM's new Ospho thread) of still active Ospho acid after it has dried and acid residue contamination (which is why HOK warns you must scrub)...

in fairness to DBM this hood is not in final prep stage yet (he osphoed' it so he could prime at some later date)...

he ospho scrubbed it with a scotchbrite to a uniform clean surface then only wiped it dry with paper towels...

he left it outdoors and later that night it rained on the hood and he took this pic' attached on the next day...

Ospho's claim (in the wiki) that the acid goes neutral by reacting with the rust and good metal by the time it is dry is not born out by this photo evidence (even after the excess was removed by the paper towel to be a dry surface plus air dry time)

Jon,
Ospho is formulated and sold as a "rust converter" product....
not a rust remover/cleaner formulation which DX579, Dupont 5717, Naval Jelly (and maybe Ospho's Rusticide product?) are formulated to be...
my $.02:
somehow that distinction needs to be worded into the wiki Ospho description....
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Last edited by red65mustang; 04-02-2010 at 07:12 AM.
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  #123 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2010, 09:24 AM
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Just to be clear..this was a second coat of Ospho applied after the first one was dry...
.I applied the second coat and it rained that night (less than 24-48 hrs) so the second coat was not completely dry...
Although there was white spots every where, it did not rust ,after I took this picture I prepped as usual with a quick sanding of 180 da, to smooth any roughness out then cleaned with wax & grease remover and primed..
I've never used this outside like this so I'm not sure of the finale results.I am fairly confident it'll work fine but if it works under these conditions it'll work in a home garage.
The adhesion tests will be posted tonight one with duct tape and one with a bondo glob.
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  #124 (permalink)  
Old 04-02-2010, 08:21 PM
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The first of the test results are in."The Ospho solution" thread...with some unexpected results...
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  #125 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2010, 05:16 AM
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dead,
pulling a piece of duct tape off the epoxy surface to test for adhesion (which is what you did on your other thread) is NOT how it's done....

gooogle ASTM D3359-08 or GM9071P
(or use key words like "cross cut adhesion test")

because there were white spots all over the hood after it rained,,,and you only DA'ed a few areas to remove residue,,,you need to do proper cross cuts bond tests all over the surface...

epoxy cure times range from 6 hours to 6 plus days depending on the brand so testing with your thumb nail to know it is cured is totally a subjective test...

you sprayed the epoxy immediately (wet on wet) after wet wiping with what brand wax and grease remover and what brand epoxy???
(most wax and grease removers require time to gas off the solvents)

just a comment/my $.02:
the filler release test is called a "pull" test for adhesion (how many pounds to get it to release) done in a lab with special equipment...
that doesn't happen to a car in the real world...

what does happen is scratches to the bare metal....
which is why the cross hatch cut bond test is the key test....

if moisture and air can wick under the epoxy at the scratch edge due to poor bond,,,, it will be trapped to cause further damage like paint lifting and rust...

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-03-2010 at 05:47 AM.
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  #126 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2010, 06:16 AM
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1) After the duct tape test I did the bondo test as suggested by SPI to another member.
2)If the primer wasn't cured after two days it would have pulled right off the metal.
3)I purposely covered the brand of material with tape.(this is NOT an advertisement for primer or W&G remover) but if you look at the wiki its the brand that says "NEVER USE ACID TREATMENTS with XXX epoxy primer".
The only reason I prefer this primer is, it sands easily so there's no need for another 2k or building primer.As I stated before Ospho works with ALL epoxy primers I ever used and "All brands primers I ever used so far"
2k's, epoxy, even lacquer primer sticks much better to metal,(back in the lacquer days that is)
4) I placed the bondo and the duct tape right where the heaviest excess streaks were (see the first pic in post #9) "Ospho solution thread") to show that it definitely works ,but I'll do it again ALL over when I do the same tests to the other side thats untreated
.5)I sanded the edges and feathered way back to show how nicely the primer was sticking to the metal but the pics came out bad I'll do that again also...any other ideas for a good test?BTW ,if the primer wasn't cured it would have balled up on the sand paper (it was most definitely cured)

Last edited by deadbodyman; 04-03-2010 at 06:35 AM.
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  #127 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2010, 07:20 AM
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dead,
the open coat time on SPI epoxy is 7 days,,,that means it takes 7 days to cure out and gas off to it's final film stable durometer state...
duct tape pulling against still active elastic epoxy after 2 days is a BS adhesion test...

after 7 days do the cross hatch cut test all over the hood...

every wax and grease remover instructions I have ever read says you MUST let the wiped surface dry to not trap wax and grease remover solvents (naptha/xylene/etc) under the coating....
ex:
http://www.autobodystore.com/ms8.shtml

your video in the thread is showing people to spray the epoxy while the surface is still wet with (un-named) wax and grease remover!!!!

I asked what brand you are using to see if it is some kind of amazing instant dry formula...
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  #128 (permalink)  
Old 04-03-2010, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by red65mustang
dead,
the open coat time on SPI epoxy is 7 days,,,that means it takes 7 days to cure out and gas off to it's final film stable durometer state...
duct tape pulling against still active elastic epoxy after 2 days is a BS adhesion test...

after 7 days do the cross hatch cut test all over the hood...

every wax and grease remover instructions I have ever read says you MUST let the wiped surface dry to not trap wax and grease remover solvents (naptha/xylene/etc) under the coating....
ex:
http://www.autobodystore.com/ms8.shtml

your video in the thread is showing people to spray the epoxy while the surface is still wet with (un-named) wax and grease remover!!!!

I asked what brand you are using to see if it is some kind of amazing instant dry formula...
Of course you let the W&G dry did you NOT see me blowing it dry? Haven't you ever seen someone use the paint gun as a blower? You can watch it evaporate the minute the air hits it....So, after 7 days I'll repeat these tests and you'll see the results will be the same.
WANNA BET??????..........ANYBODY????
I can donate the winnings to a good cause....In your names....
I may have rushed through some, because I'm using an outdated camera and it only records so long ,the point is... It did "NOT" fail ..."Clearly".....My claim all along...
If, as you say, I made all these mistakes How could it possibly work,LOL ?????
I'll even go one step further and make a prediction.....
The epoxy primer sticks to ospho treated metal (the way I used it) BETTER than epoxy sticks to untreated metal thats just sanded with 80 grit paper and cleaned with wax & grease remover...
The (unnamed) products I use are, SPI .. THE BEST DANG EPOXY PRIMER ON THE PLANET..(something else I swear by).The W&G is the same Brand but any brand will do...(any one that uses it would recognize the can).Keep in mind I'll do all the same tests to the other side.But anyone can produce a failed test how can you fake a successful one??? I invite anyone to do the same and post your results.....Preferably inexperienced people with an open mind ....I'll redo these-tests on Monday then on Friday.That should be the end of it...Once again,is there any other tests I should do?
I realize its hard to believe anything you see or read these days but there comes a point where you gotta say:"I might just be wrong after all",there might be something to this,maybe I should try this and see for myself.you may just learn something...

Last edited by deadbodyman; 04-03-2010 at 09:22 AM.
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  #129 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2010, 07:21 AM
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dead,
re: epoxy video..
because you are painting outdoors any normal person would see the only approx 10 seconds worth of just gun air in the video as a final dust removal step (I did!),,,not how to dry the wax and grease remover....
(you didn't even blow off the whole panel)

go back and edit your text in that section to explain you ARE taking shortcuts to keep the video short...
a novice would/could see/view it as video instructions to epoxy while the wax and grease remover is still wet....

re: tape pull adhesion test
hard to believe you have never learned how to do a cross hatch cut adhesion test with masking tape....
"duct tape" is not how a experienced "Pro" would teach someone how to do a adhesion test which your video shows...
here is a short descriptive link just for the method idea:
http://www.defelsko.com/technotes/adhesion_methods.htm
lot's of better details articles on the web,,,it is easy and quick to do....

if it is not to late,,,on the second half of the hood,,,go ahead and ospho a area same as before and this time keep track of where you sanded or did not sand to do the cross hatch cut lift tests after 7 days cure...

if that is a scrap hood (???) just tape off the areas and epoxy over the tape,,,one area untouched ospho treated,,,one area streaked ospho,,,one area sanded ospho,,,one area bright steel so you can keep track of what's what....

re: the blob test
to be honest I had never heard of it till this thread...

to prove anything at all with the blob test:
on the second half of the hood,,,apply as close to equal blobs to each of the different finished surface areas....
(one blob success doesn't conclusively prove anything,,,you need to repeat a test with varying conditions to prove it is a valid result for that condition)

(agree with shine this thread is a mess) so I am posting my concerns with your other thread here...

your putting alot of time and effort into that thread,,,I honestly only want to help make it better for a novice to read...

no dis-respect intended but so far the thread is just a "info-mercial" for Ospho...

do the testing at-least basically correctly on the second half of the hood and you will prove your point!!!!

to everyone:
here's a link to DBM's new Ospho instructional thread with the videos links that I'm referring to:

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/osph...al-175465.html

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-04-2010 at 07:30 AM.
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  #130 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2010, 08:25 AM
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We're finally getting somewhere,Red.Thats information I can use.
I want everything clear and easy to understand for the novice.
Many times we explain how to do something at the shop thats so easy for us to do without even thinking about it and the help has no idea what were talking about and are confused right at the start ,but they nod their heads anyways,because they don't want ask a dumb question...In the end ,things get messed up and have to be redone.I always ask my helpers if they have questions and now's the time to ask before they start. There are no dumb questions and it helps others to understand..and do a better job ,its all good... Many times, everyone is thinking the same thing and waiting for someone else to ask first,I say don't wait, ask as soon as it pops up.I'll look into this cross hatch test and apply it to both sides.
You have some valid questions that made me realizethings arnt so clear as I thought, so feel free to ask on the other thread ,its also a Q&A thread.
Due to my time constraints and short battery life ,the videos have to be short, and I cant edit or cut and splice short segments into longer ,more clear ones.Two or three were un usable so things are missing but a question could fill the voids.
Teaching someone at the shop is fairly easy for me but online is like doing it with both hands tied behind my back ,I'll need all the help I can get.
After all your dealing with an uneducated, drop out with a 9th grade education...............I really mean it when I say, ("if I can do it","anybody can").............................Mike O.

Last edited by deadbodyman; 04-04-2010 at 09:33 AM.
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  #131 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:18 AM
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well i hate to tell you mike but your doing it all wrong. chevytruckguy's hero's on 2car guys showed the proper way to do it. strip with acid then apply atf to the panel so it wont rust................. there should be a law against infomercials.
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  #132 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2010, 09:57 AM
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Shine ,LOL,its funny you brought that up .I haven't seen that episode...
When I was telling my brother in law about all the hoopla I was getting about using ospho,he told me about the ospho use on two guys garage I was just about to say ,finally, someone is explaining how to use this stuff.(I showed him how to do it a couple years ago and he did most of my 48 himself) then he proceeded to tell me about the transmission fluid and it just shot me down.
I couldn't believe what I was hearing.
I hope no one tries ATF on steel they want to paint. We take long measures to rid ourselves of oils and contaminates in our shop and air supply.
Why would they say something like that?
I wonder how the next episodes about painting and body work went? was the show canceled after that?
I even saw Chip Foose weld a 1/4 on ,without the door on, turned out to be a big mistake at assembly time. Not to mention doing all the body work on top of bare steel and rubbing it with ungloved hands.(instant rust)there's many good reasons for priming bare metal right away and doing everything on top of epoxy primer.You guys hashed all this out long before I got here.
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  #133 (permalink)  
Old 04-04-2010, 10:19 AM
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these are the same people using duplicolor .
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  #134 (permalink)  
Old 04-06-2010, 06:59 AM
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Jon,
my $.02:
remove the DX579 mention from the wiki....

let the wiki (only) cover using non-automotive refinishing formulated acid treatment products????

reason/example:
not only is DX way less acid in the jug compared to Ospho but the PPG directions state to further dilute it 2/1 with water before application to the steel and then just 2-3 minutes before a total/full water flush,,,totally dry the metal and epoxy immediately (because it won't inhibit rust at all)....
"ALOT more gooder (stronger Ospho acid solution) is not always more good" =a paraphrase of my favorite Max Keith, (a HR member) quote that is SO true SO often!!!!

not always but often/sometimes/maybe further treatment with DX520 "is" required to help the epoxy bond to steel depending on what/how you are prepping...

(a non-PPG site) DX579 TDS example:
http://www.bapspaint.com/docs/psheet...tron/P-226.pdf

there are good "step by step how to" threads/photo's on DX use on several boards to use with PPG epoxy....

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-06-2010 at 07:21 AM.
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Old 04-06-2010, 07:53 AM
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dead,
page 54 on this link is instructions for how to do a cross hatch cut adhesion test...

https://www.oskgpsc.net/otc/paintspec.pdf

(a shortcut direct to the page is back space/blank out the pdf page number window at the top and type in "54" and hit enter on your computer)

LOL,,,yeah, it's overkill details/controls instructions for a MIL spec pass/fail test so it's offered just for some "how to" info...

we use a steel rule edge to scribe the lines spaced about 1/8th apart with a razor blade and regular masking tape pulled back on it's self to see if anything lifts...

re: the other thread
just a writing/composing comment (????)
several times in that thread you have asked for questions/suggestions/comments already....
more typical/normal to have a summary post at the end of a presentation (which you are doing very well) and then ask for questions so you can complete the presentation un-interrupted/ASAP/fewest posts...
(which is why I am posting here)

LOL!!!! last time I looked at Randy's thread the sucker was 250+ posts and still growing and you don't want that to happen till after you are done with your presentation...

Last edited by red65mustang; 04-06-2010 at 08:33 AM.
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