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Old 02-24-2010, 10:46 AM
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OSPHO factory response

In light of a recent spat during a thread regarding using OSPHO and epoxy primer, I decided to contact the tech department at OSPHO to get some solid info on thier product and what it does. Considering that I had recently used the two products together on my car, this question was near and dear to my heart. Here is how it went.


From me:
I need your help understanding how your product works. I am using
it on an old car that I am restoring. On one of the online car forums that
discussion has come up about whether or not your product should be used at
all. Your literature says that your product will help a paint stick better
and kill rust. Some of the epoxy primer manufacturers are saying not to use
your product because it may react later with thier product causing the paint
job to fail. This is a very large car forum so a lot of people/customers are
being influenced by these discussions including myself. What is your take on
this?

RESPONSE:

The primary active ingredient in Ospho is phosphoric acid, it works by "converting" iron oxide (rust) to iron phosphates that are much more chemically stable and therefor resist corrosion for a much longer time - thereby extending the effective lifespan of the primer and topcoat. After the Ospho reacts with the steel surface it is completely neutralized and does not leave behind any film or deposits that might interfere with subsequent primer/topcoats.

There can be a small amount of powdery-like material that should be blown, brushed or rinsed off before painting. It is also important to allow adequate drying time before painting. Ospho is a water-based solution and the water can hide in nooks and crannies causing adhesion failure of the primer. Old car frames are particularly susceptible to this because of the pitting commonly found on frame members.

Ospho does not have any known compatibility issues with any modern coatings (epoxies, polyurethanes, etc.) but as an old paint chemist I always recommend coating a small test area to make sure the entire coating system is going to work well together. I will also add the fact that the ultimate success or failure of any paint job on any substrate is about 95% dependent on the surface preparation done prior to picking up a brush.

I am including our latest Technical Bulletin - please let me know if you need more info.

Stephen L. Pitcher
Technical Director

From me:
I read your bulliten. I just want to make sure that I understand one specific point. You say that once the OSHO has dried, typically overnight, there is no longer any acid on the surface to react with the paint. It is totally neutralized?

Response:
Yes, the Ospho will be totally neutralized by reaction with both the rust particles and the steel underneath. A quick water rinse after it has dried (remember, Ospho is water-based) will remove any trace of reaction particles (dust-like) and make sure the surface is in perfect condition for priming.

Stephen L. Pitcher
Technical Director


I do not think that this will change many peoples minds about whether or not it should be done or not. But I was mainly interested in finding out from the manufacturer if there was an actively acidic residue left after the product dried. As you can read, thier response was "no" tempered with a "rinse it anyway".

Let the mayhem insue........

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Old 02-24-2010, 10:55 AM
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Thanks for looking into the questions. I'm in the middle of my first total repaint where I'm using OSPHO, epoxy primer, and urethane. The other thread had me very worried but now I think the OSPHO/epoxy combo probably isn't my biggest risk for a rookie mistake.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:04 AM
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i would suggest you get tech advice on painting from the paint mfgr you are using. not the maker of the product in question. i dont know what you expected them to say. did you not find it strange he said " before you ever pick up a brush " ???? you are not using oil based paint are you ? follow the use of phosphoric acid in the industrial setting and you will learn much more about it and it's uses.
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Old 02-24-2010, 11:31 AM
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I worked at [name withheld to protect the guilty]'s GTO in Orlando, FL for a while. He used Ospho, for what that's worth- considering the guy was a hack in most regards- probably not worth too much.

However, while I was there, quite a few cars went out after getting Ospho'ed, and a like number returned their cars for various and sundry "issues"- but none were due to paint adhesion problems, or paint issues in general.

I'd think if Ospho were to be a problem when used under a urethane finish, or an epoxy-type primer (his MO) that this shop would be one to have problems.

All they did after applying the Ospho and letting it dry, was to use a worn out Scotch pad to lightly wipe over the surface while running water over it. Then the car would be allowed to dry, and the bodywork would commence.

As for the "paint brush" remark by Ospho's techie, I wouldn't put too much weight on that- it's just a euphemism, IMO.
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Old 02-24-2010, 12:54 PM
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there is an all important question that you have to answer before you soda blast , chemstrip , or use phosphoric acid . " can i survive a paint failure on this " . the guys who advise against these things do so because we have seen or heard of the failures. not that it is going to happen but rather " it could " . just like having a car dipped . there is a risk involved. i've been bit by dipping and chemstrip over the years. i build for a living so painted cars stay here until they are finished. no way do i want to have to take a finished car apart and start over. telling a customer your going to fix it wont hunt. if they do not kill you outright they will damn sure want it completely redone. even though i believe i can use these products correctly i will not take such a risk when there are alternatives. it will only take 1 or 2 to put you out of business or in court.
solvents and acids are not your friends. ask a paint rep what causes them the biggest headache .
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Old 02-24-2010, 01:09 PM
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I have also spoke with the SPI Tech guy. He got me straighten out. I have to say talking with them was great. I will have to say that after talking with him, I would not recommend using OSPHO under epoxy. There were some scenarios that he mentioned where the acid could be nuetralized enough to possibly make it acceptable but not something that should be attempted. I was really interested it hearing about speciffic instances that he was aware of where failure was caused by the OSPHO. He gave me some and even explained how he knew the body was OSPHO'ed (he licked the bare metal and could taste the sour acid). He also warned me against using laquer thinner as a degreaser. I was not aware of that even being a problem. Make a long story short. Don't do it. If you do, once the car gets out into the UV light for extended periods of time, you may get bubbles of 1/2" to 2" of paint lifting, especially at seams. The epoxy can crack as well. He did give me a test that I can try to see if I have active acid residue in the epoxy that I sprayed last week. he said take a 1" blob of body filler and stick it on the epoxy. Let it set for an hour. Then remove the filler and get back down to bare epoxy. If it has turned soft and can be scratched with your fingernail, you have a problem. If it doesn't, well..... you have to make a judgement call.

Sometimes you have to pay for your education.
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Old 02-24-2010, 10:32 PM
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test done. epic failure. OSPHO no good. laquer thinner no good. Stop doing this. Bad.
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Old 02-25-2010, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xpsyclonex2002
test done. epic failure. OSPHO no good. lacquer thinner no good. Stop doing this. Bad.
I'm sorry about the problem, even though you followed the acid guidelines for use of their product. I guess self neutralizing is like being pregnant, you either are or your not.

First my policy is never respond to an SPI thread on here at it would be unethical but 65mustang on one did a very good job trying to explain why acids are or can be a problem if not used perfectly.

The point I would like to make it this, adhesion test here means nothing, period and every product has different tests to tell the real story.
I saw on here where someone tested a zinc product for adhesion, well how do we know how it was made? Maybe adhesion is gained over a 30-90 day period, we don't know, so the test is faulty, although I agree with his test results but still may not be the right test.

I think, PPG, Dupont, BASF has some of the brightest minds in the industry, when the highest a guy with a masters degree can go in R+D, is a lab rat, testing batches, you know they have some smart guys in those places.

Now some of them make 4-12 different wax and grease remover and all have specific uses, none of them in their tech sheets say use acetone or lacquer thinner to clean bare metal or paint--they must have a reason??!!!!!???

Follow the tech sheets for the product you are using and if you want to play bench chemist to save a few cents, think of what it will cost when you have to re-strip the car and do over, listen to the people that paint cars everyday, like Shine, 65Mustang, Jeremyb, if these guys have comebacks it can put them out of business real fast.
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Old 02-25-2010, 07:47 AM
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xps,
LOL!!!!
I am going to so totally freak out Nelson the shop owner with the "lick" test!!!

in fairness to the Ospho folks he can't give a "concise" answer because there are literally 1000's of epoxy formulas for many different industries and uses and environments,,,(and I have tried to keep that in my empty head when composing my replies)

only for the idea:
there are places on a car where ospho can be "some" help because only dipping can get them clean...
inside the A pillar which never had any protection as a example..
(only todays cars get fully submerged)
flood it with repeated ospho treatments,,,do what you can to rinse it with a high pressure garden nozzle then flood it with alykd primer then flood it with alkyd enamel to form a skin (which is basically how ospho was intended to be used)
it is just a "last resort band aid method" but it is about all you can do and if nothing else the inside of the car will smell better....
(plan B on a pillar is spray closed cell urethane foam and fill the pillar but that can be tricky to not trap moisture so coat it first for a belt and suspenders)

Last edited by red65mustang; 02-25-2010 at 11:47 AM.
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Old 02-25-2010, 08:16 AM
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I'm no different,a couple failures would do the same to me.Sand blasting is not an option at my shop and has its own set of drawbacks....Not only does Ospho work,it works well...At fifteen bucks a quart you got nothing to loose and everything to gain....I use it on Everything I strip.its been around for years so like it was said before do your own test before using it.It WILL protect bare metal from rusting, it WILL dissolve rust away and add years to a paint job.....I sand it like any other coating, for adhesion(180,not a scuff pad on extrior panels)... when used PROPERLY its the ONLY choice for me..Blasting sucks .....especially for an armature (and these are the ones I'm trying to help)(people that build them and drive them)...Blasting will screw up a car body sure as anything,Not to mention the ungodly mess it'll make in your homes garage.. and should only be done by a pro..IMO... What I WOULD like to know is how many of the guys that don't like it ,have actually used it, not just heard or read something about it...I've used it for over 25 yrs and I would most definitely know if it didn't work.try it and make up your own minds.I've done my own tests with great success..FYI,most epoxies can take up to a week to cure so putting a blob of bondo on it tells you nothing without doing the same test on a spot thats untreated (a control)...uncured epoxy will scrape right off ANY metal and anybody that does super nice work KNOWS that simply touching bare metal with your hands is all you need for a failure (wear latex gloves).. Its more important to worry about that and you air supply ,because blowing a bare metal car off with wet or oily air is another major cause for an armatures paint failure I worry about THAT...first...Metal prep is everything......good day gentlemen...
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Old 02-25-2010, 10:58 AM
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helping guys who are doing their own is exactly what we are doing. steering them clear of risk they do not need to take. they have the least experience and are most likely to have a failure. the fewer solvents they use the better . and they absolutely cant afford a redo because they took bad advice and got into trouble. there are safer alternatives to use.
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Old 02-25-2010, 01:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryK
I saw on here where someone tested a zinc product for adhesion, well how do we know how it was made? Maybe adhesion is gained over a 30-90 day period, we don't know, so the test is faulty, although I agree with his test results but still may not be the right test.

.

I wonder who that was? Very good point Barry. What my test proved, is what my test proved, nothing more, nothing less. At one day, you can scrape it off with your finger nail, that is ALL it proved. Maybe with 30 or 90 days it gets better? Very good point, I'll check that out being those test panels are sitting in my back yard waiting further scrutiny.

Brian
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Old 02-26-2010, 05:35 AM
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This tread caused a real panic attack by the phone calls I got yesterday, here are the options if you used it and have not painted over the area yet.

Inside the car, like trunks, floor pans, let set 5-7 days, wash with a waterborne wax and grease remover or warm soapy water with a scuff pad, dry and shoot. Not critical or as critical here, since these areas will not see stone chips or UV's.

Outside panels:
Re-wet with the acid using a scuff pad and rinse with clean water BEFORE it drys, buzz with an 80 grit DA and wash with a waterborne wax and grease remover, dry let set an hour and shoot.

Next option, if its on the car, let set for 5-7 days, buzz with an 80 grit DA and clean with either a waterborne wax and grease remover or warm soapy water, dry, let set an hour and shoot.

The above are not perfect options but SHOULD solve the acid film problem.
Do remember, lacquer thinner, Acetone, solvent wax and grease removers will not neutralize. Also it is very important the the waterborne wax and grease remover is made to use on bare metal, some are not and can cause problems.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:45 AM
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Is Naval Jelly different ???

Is the rust removal process using Naval Jelly that is described by Randy Fergeson in this thread;
https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/secr...ht=naval+jelly still okay to use?

Is Ospho different from Naval Jelly in it's use or application? Is the problem with Ospho that it was allowed to dry? Randy seemed to reinforce several times during his write up that he always kept the Naval Jelly wet until he was ready to wash it off.

I have been planning on using Randy's process on my '56 Dodge wagon that has a lot of surface rust on the exterior and a fair amount of rust on the floor panels, pillars and interior roof seams. The alternative would be to have it sand blasted, but I am really concerned about warping the huge flat sheet metal panels on this wagon.
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Old 02-26-2010, 06:48 AM
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Navel jelly is a lot milder, Randy has it right. Like he said keeping wet is key.
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