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  #76 (permalink)  
Old 07-15-2017, 09:43 AM
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Tram the cowl to support as well. If you can't find upper body measurements use the fender bolt hole in the front and hood latch to striker to help with putting it in a good spot and square. Should close smoothly, not clunky. Throw in the cowl vent too. All that is important to get now. before body work.

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  #77 (permalink)  
Old 07-16-2017, 12:32 PM
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Panel and structural panel replacement on 77 firebird trans am

Quote:
Originally Posted by tech69 View Post
Tram the cowl to support as well. If you can't find upper body measurements use the fender bolt hole in the front and hood latch to striker to help with putting it in a good spot and square. Should close smoothly, not clunky. Throw in the cowl vent too. All that is important to get now. before body work.


You keep talking about the "support." Are you referring to the core support? Yes, I do plan on fitting the entire front clip after hanging this rocker with screws and clecos. The cowl can't go back on yet. It too will have to be screwed down. The roof arms go below it. Their bases are sandwiched between the cowl and the rocker that I'm working on.


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  #78 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 02:19 AM
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lets back up a minute

I believe that he can fit this together without worrying about the front end. You guys keep talking about suspension load issues and things like that And then want to use the sub frame as either a weight (which will spread the top of the of the door openings or as a lever, which will close it.) Here is how I would proceed.

First before putting any parts on the car, hammer dolly and grind all areas were flanges were spot welded. your part fit needs to be superb at the mating surfaces.

Then fit the rockers to the floor and quarter (at the seam in the lower quarter, use the leading edge of the wheel opening to determine front to rear location. When this fits place a tack weld in the wheel opening and Screw the rear door pillar at the sill. 3 to 4 screws. Next throw them clecos back in the tool box, they will not give good enough holding power to do what needs done here.

Then fit it to the cowl. screw it on the flanges every 4 inches. Now take the floating nut plates in the cowl and a long reach vice grip to clamp the nut plates in the center of the square holes. Now take an 1/8 inch bit and drill a hole through the outer layers into the nut plate. now use a 1/4 bit to taper the hole and do one plug weld on each plate. This will hold the hinges to the cowl in a position that will insure some movement in all directions. Hang the door, make your adjustments to set the lower gap at the front of the rocker first. Then close the door, if rocker gap is off you will need remove some screws to alow slight adjustment then rescrew it with gap needed. Once the door gap is good at the bottom move up the quarter panel and keep making adjustments in and out, so the door is plumb to the quarter top to bottom. with this done, you can hang a fender on the cowl, support the weight of the front of the fender from either floor or cherry picker. Shim and tighten the upper and lower fender bolts to verify door gaps at front to the fender. At this point door should swing, line up on the lower rocker quarter and fender. I would then screw the floor off every 4 inches if door still functions and the gaps are good weld it completely. Rinse and repeat on side two. Send me a Pm if you have questions.

treat this as 3 boxes, you are working on the middle box now. the trunk is the next box. The front is easy its adjustable. Strive for a consistant 3/16. gap
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  #79 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 01:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 35prog View Post
I believe that he can fit this together without worrying about the front end. You guys keep talking about suspension load issues and things like that And then want to use the sub frame as either a weight (which will spread the top of the of the door openings or as a lever, which will close it.) Here is how I would proceed.



First before putting any parts on the car, hammer dolly and grind all areas were flanges were spot welded. your part fit needs to be superb at the mating surfaces.



Then fit the rockers to the floor and quarter (at the seam in the lower quarter, use the leading edge of the wheel opening to determine front to rear location. When this fits place a tack weld in the wheel opening and Screw the rear door pillar at the sill. 3 to 4 screws. Next throw them clecos back in the tool box, they will not give good enough holding power to do what needs done here.



Then fit it to the cowl. screw it on the flanges every 4 inches. Now take the floating nut plates in the cowl and a long reach vice grip to clamp the nut plates in the center of the square holes. Now take an 1/8 inch bit and drill a hole through the outer layers into the nut plate. now use a 1/4 bit to taper the hole and do one plug weld on each plate. This will hold the hinges to the cowl in a position that will insure some movement in all directions. Hang the door, make your adjustments to set the lower gap at the front of the rocker first. Then close the door, if rocker gap is off you will need remove some screws to alow slight adjustment then rescrew it with gap needed. Once the door gap is good at the bottom move up the quarter panel and keep making adjustments in and out, so the door is plumb to the quarter top to bottom. with this done, you can hang a fender on the cowl, support the weight of the front of the fender from either floor or cherry picker. Shim and tighten the upper and lower fender bolts to verify door gaps at front to the fender. At this point door should swing, line up on the lower rocker quarter and fender. I would then screw the floor off every 4 inches if door still functions and the gaps are good weld it completely. Rinse and repeat on side two. Send me a Pm if you have questions.



treat this as 3 boxes, you are working on the middle box now. the trunk is the next box. The front is easy its adjustable. Strive for a consistant 3/16. gap


Great information. I'll study it closely his evening. I'm a little confused at the moment on what you're suggesting with the cowl cage but and welding it with a plug weld. I only got to read through your post quickly though because I'm at work. Thanks for the info!

Another problem I seem to be having is that the inner quarter structure seems too high inside the panel. It's like 1/4" above he too or the rocker even though the rocker is butted up against the bottom the quarter. I was going to draw it in with screws, but I find it strange.


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  #80 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 07:58 PM
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[QUOTE=Schroeder;4242777]Great information. I'll study it closely his evening. I'm a little confused at the moment on what you're suggesting with the cowl cage but and welding it with a plug weld. I only got to read through your post quickly though because I'm at work. Thanks for the info!

Another problem I seem to be having is that the inner quarter structure seems too high inside the panel. It's like 1/4" above he too or the rocker even though the rocker is butted up against the bottom the quarter. I was going to draw it in with screws, but I find it strange.

While studying take a look at the photo in post 69 at where the inner quarter is supposed to fit to the inner rocker, that flange should be straight and bent at a 90 deg (I think) also the area at the rear of door opening is not straightened as it needs to be. As far as the lower quarter flange needs to be straightened. It only takes one Small area to keep the panel from fitting. Do not put the panel in place, and then beat on and cut as you referred to in the cowl area. Body work is about finesse not force. When painting it is all about prep work. The same is to be said for metal work. Hide that sledge hammer, it is not needed for this type of work.

As far as the spot weld on the cowl area this is on the floating nut plates within the door post. it is not a permanent weld, it is just to insure that you will have an 1/8 inch of final movement when final assembly comes.

Some advice that may clear up why there is a preferred method of attacking this. Think of your car as a house you are adding on to both ends. The passenger compartment is the main structure the quarters are one addition and the fenders are another add on the other end. Since have removed the roof you will need to start at the rockers and floor and build up and then out.

Your doors will act as "fixtures" for the passenger compartment. Once these fit the rockers and the rockers fit the quarters you will be over the hump.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:22 PM
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Are you talking about the last image in post 69? Still not following you on welding the tap plates. I'm going to wed he upper and lower hinge tap plates in place?? I'm sure it's a golden idea since everything else you're saying seems to be great, but I just don't understand. Maybe I'll just PM you!!


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  #82 (permalink)  
Old 07-17-2017, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Schroeder View Post
Are you talking about the last image in post 69? Still not following you on welding the tap plates. I'm going to wed he upper and lower hinge tap plates in place?? I'm sure it's a golden idea since everything else you're saying seems to be great, but I just don't understand. Maybe I'll just PM you!!


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I think what he is saying is to center the nut plates located in the A pillars at the door hinge mounts and tack them there. So that you are in the center of the range of adjustment for fitting, and so that there will be room to scoot the hinges on the pillar for finer adjustment later. Sure am glad another voice jumped in.
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:38 AM
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Ok that makes sense. Yeah in glad someone else jumped in too! I like to hear s bunch of ideas and opinions. Good stuff.


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Old 07-18-2017, 08:29 PM
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here are the areas that need attention

Here are the photos that show spot weld flanges that need to be addressed IMO. I would suggest getting a couple of scissor style spare tire jacks, I like to use ones that you can put a 3/4 socket on after removing the handle. I would put one under the quarter area on the rocker at the lower pinch weld and then another at the cowl door post (after prepping the pinch weld areas) Then use these to help support things when the door is mounted.
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  #85 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2017, 08:32 PM
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What needs addressed? Do you mean hammered and dollied as you mentioned? What are you thinking is wrong in the pic with the steve ruler (scale) in it?


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  #86 (permalink)  
Old 07-18-2017, 09:35 PM
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This seem needs to be TIGHT. Even though you will not be using the quarter, You must fit it like you are. On the last photo, I feel that the inner flange is causing this gap.
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Old 07-19-2017, 05:05 AM
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Ok, I will put the rocker back on and do more hammering to get it straight.

I did cut the original flange off and weld new in because the old was mangled.

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Old 07-22-2017, 11:24 AM
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Alright guys here is where I am at. I threw the rocker back on. There has been space between the inner quarte door jamb pieces and the rocker this whole time, so I worked on getting them screwed to the rocker.


Notice the area I marked as 1. It shows that this corner in the quarter isn't flush tight against the rocker. Here it looks like the rocker should come up to snuggly sit in the corner of the quarter. This will make problems elsewhere though.


There is some spacer between the back of this door jamb structure flange, but when I take the rocker off again I'll bend it down a bit. The front of it touches. I drilled a hole through the quarter to be able to get an impact driver in and install the screw you see closest to #2.





These 2 pics show the fit of the rocker against the base of (what's left of) the quarter. I'm not sure if the pics show it well, but the quarter hangs out past the rocker a touch. It's ever so slight, and I want to proceed as it is because the line I am going by is rotted out. I have a hard time taking this quarter/rocker interface to the bank since the wuarter is rotted out.


Here's a pic of the rear portion of the floor pan/rocker interface. There is some waves in the floor pan flange, so I do need to hammer and dolly it as someone has suggested it. I had planned on just drawing this in with clamps originally.

So what do you guys think? Proceed? Or is something awry at the rocker/quarter interface?

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Old 07-22-2017, 09:01 PM
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Keep plugging away

You look like you are heading the right direction. If you can draw things tight with clamps, go for it. I would now tack the hinge nut plates in the cowl and fit the door as I described earlier. Looks good to me, the areas you are pointing out should not be a problem. Are you using OEM doors or AM?
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Old 07-23-2017, 05:10 AM
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OEM. I can now see the ones I have are packed with bondo on the bottom. I don't know if I'll be repairing these or buying used OEM. Is re-skinning doors worth it?

Does anyone have an EXACT product name and part number of the glue that goes between skins like doors, roofs, and hoods and their inner structures? I'll be needing it for my roof and now MAYBE doors.


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