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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 06-12-2017, 11:06 AM
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Brian Martin,Freelance adviser
 
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If you found a ton of low spots, for goodness sakes skim coat the whole thing! If you got with the program and understood how this works, rough it into shape and put a skim coat over the whole thing it would save you so much time it's crazy!

How hard is it for you to feather out those "patches?" You have just made that comment about "blending it in" I am telling you, skim coat the whole thing after you have sanded it where you KNOW that one skim coat will take care of everything. Try this, it is the best way if you have a bunch of things all over an area covered with filler. It is MUCH better than "patching" and blending stuff in.

From the price of the putty I assume it's 2K do NOT use 1k.

Brian

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Old 06-12-2017, 06:30 PM
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Originally Posted by MARTINSR View Post
If you found a ton of low spots, for goodness sakes skim coat the whole thing! If you got with the program and understood how this works, rough it into shape and put a skim coat over the whole thing it would save you so much time it's crazy!

How hard is it for you to feather out those "patches?" You have just made that comment about "blending it in" I am telling you, skim coat the whole thing after you have sanded it where you KNOW that one skim coat will take care of everything. Try this, it is the best way if you have a bunch of things all over an area covered with filler. It is MUCH better than "patching" and blending stuff in.

From the price of the putty I assume it's 2K do NOT use 1k.

Brian
Yeah, slow learner. The glazing is so damn expensive that I've been stingy with it. Pound foolish, I know. I thought that I had it pretty good when I shot it with the high build primer but when I sanded that the problems showed. Apparently I can sand it to death where it looks real good but come back a few days later and find it's crap. It'll look good on the X axis but be lumpy on the Y axis. I can do welding, machining and fabrication on an expert level but "artsy" stuff is a lost cause. I could puss out and pay someone to do it but I've seen many cars where all the owner did was write the check. There's no pride in that. I'll just keep pluggin' along.
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Old 06-12-2017, 09:33 PM
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Originally Posted by belchfire View Post
Yeah, slow learner. The glazing is so damn expensive that I've been stingy with it. Pound foolish, I know. I thought that I had it pretty good when I shot it with the high build primer but when I sanded that the problems showed. Apparently I can sand it to death where it looks real good but come back a few days later and find it's crap. It'll look good on the X axis but be lumpy on the Y axis. I can do welding, machining and fabrication on an expert level but "artsy" stuff is a lost cause. I could puss out and pay someone to do it but I've seen many cars where all the owner did was write the check. There's no pride in that. I'll just keep pluggin' along.
As in the "Basics of Basics" you have to stop when you hit the metal, I mean when you barely are hitting it, the filler is "transparent" over it so it's not gone, but you can see through it, that is when you need to STOP sanding. You can't keep sanding when you see a low spot, you need to STOP when you see that metal through the filler.

This is a real basic way to look at it, there is of course a gray area where you can after some experience go further but stopping right there when you see that metal every time will teach you a bunch about when to stop each time.

Brian
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Old 06-13-2017, 03:21 AM
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One other reason for the skim coat that maybe has not been explained.

If you sand through the high build primer to body filler, then to Epoxy you will find each of them sand differently. The filler will be harder for the paper to cut than the primer and no matter how hard you try it will end up wavy. By doing the skim coat you are sanding one material only and it will sand evenly so when you block it you get a nice level finish.

The same thing will happen if you keep trying to put body filler on small low areas. The fresh body filler will sand easier than the fully cured filler and it will be challenging to block it out well. Covering a larger area is one of the lessons every new hobbiests learns the hard way.

John
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2017, 06:16 AM
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Originally Posted by belchfire View Post
Yeah, slow learner. The glazing is so damn expensive that I've been stingy with it. Pound foolish, I know. I thought that I had it pretty good when I shot it with the high build primer but when I sanded that the problems showed. Apparently I can sand it to death where it looks real good but come back a few days later and find it's crap. It'll look good on the X axis but be lumpy on the Y axis. I can do welding, machining and fabrication on an expert level but "artsy" stuff is a lost cause. I could puss out and pay someone to do it but I've seen many cars where all the owner did was write the check. There's no pride in that. I'll just keep pluggin' along.
what are you blocking it with? that might be part of the problem. From what it sounds like I think I would hard block it with an 8-10" file block with 180 and sand the snot out of it. then like Brian says skim the whole panel. That poly putty can get expensive I know but it can sure save valuable time. I like spraying a little guide coat on it before sanding it with 180
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2017, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by John long View Post
One other reason for the skim coat that maybe has not been explained.

If you sand through the high build primer to body filler, then to Epoxy you will find each of them sand differently. The filler will be harder for the paper to cut than the primer and no matter how hard you try it will end up wavy. By doing the skim coat you are sanding one material only and it will sand evenly so when you block it you get a nice level finish.

The same thing will happen if you keep trying to put body filler on small low areas. The fresh body filler will sand easier than the fully cured filler and it will be challenging to block it out well. Covering a larger area is one of the lessons every new hobbiests learns the hard way.

John
Exactly, that explanation is needed, makes it very clear.

Brian
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Old 06-15-2017, 08:45 AM
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glazing putty is a waste of money. Get rage ultra and you won't need glaze. If there's pinholes with that stuff it's by chance or technique. That stuff should not really pinhole much.
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Old 06-15-2017, 04:56 PM
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what are you blocking it with? that might be part of the problem. From what it sounds like I think I would hard block it with an 8-10" file block with 180 and sand the snot out of it. then like Brian says skim the whole panel. That poly putty can get expensive I know but it can sure save valuable time. I like spraying a little guide coat on it before sanding it with 180
I've been using a 12" long board almost exclusively. I'll start with 80 then 180 then 240. I've also stapled a couple of sheets of sand paper to a 2' long 2 x 4 for some of the long flat areas. Cab roof corners are like polishing a bowling ball but those have come out pretty good. I'm using the dry powder guide coat sanding where it just disappears but waves still happen. I was hoping that the poly primer would serve pretty much as a skim coat and for the first part it's done a reasonable job but there's always some thing that shows up. Did the rubber squeegee bit and that seems to have fixed the pin hole problem.
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old 06-15-2017, 06:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belchfire View Post
I've been using a 12" long board almost exclusively. I'll start with 80 then 180 then 240. I've also stapled a couple of sheets of sand paper to a 2' long 2 x 4 for some of the long flat areas. Cab roof corners are like polishing a bowling ball but those have come out pretty good. I'm using the dry powder guide coat sanding where it just disappears but waves still happen. I was hoping that the poly primer would serve pretty much as a skim coat and for the first part it's done a reasonable job but there's always some thing that shows up. Did the rubber squeegee bit and that seems to have fixed the pin hole problem.
On the curved areas I have always looked at them as a "curved flat" it's just an image in my head. If I feel a curved surface and there is a high spot I block it out just as if it were a flat panel, not the same movement over the panel of course, but the same in my head, cutting that high spot down rolling over to the outsides of it .

Brian
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  #25 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2017, 06:39 AM
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glazing putty is a waste of money. Get rage ultra and you won't need glaze. If there's pinholes with that stuff it's by chance or technique. That stuff should not really pinhole much.
The glazing putties are used instead of a fist coat of primer. when you get your bodywork roughed in with 80 most body men Ive seen go right to primer and for your production work I guess that's ok but its still a short cut that can cause problems within a year like scratches swelling up, shrinking and the feather edges around the work swelling, especially on hoods. sure, it looks good when it leaves the shop but a few months out in the sun and everything starts showing up.
Instead of going to primer after 80 you would use the easier sanding poly putty and sand that with 180 then 320. If the scratches and other imperfections like waves aren't there in the first place they cant swell up or shrink, the putty is very good at that. burring it in primer, no so much.
In general I try to do one coat of filler, (sometimes two), sanded with 80 and one coat of putty, (sometimes two) sanded with 180 -320 then prime. sand primer with 320 dry or 400 wet and paint. Everyone wants to rush to get that primer on then they have problems.
I had more trouble learning the filler work than any other part of body and paint work but there were no build primers and poly putties back then just lacquer primer and nitro stain so you didn't leave scratches and what not for the primer to take care of if you did they were 100% certain to come back and bite you so learning took time. The frustration was all part of it.
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  #26 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2017, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
The glazing putties are used instead of a fist coat of primer. when you get your bodywork roughed in with 80 most body men Ive seen go right to primer and for your production work I guess that's ok but its still a short cut that can cause problems within a year like scratches swelling up, shrinking and the feather edges around the work swelling, especially on hoods. sure, it looks good when it leaves the shop but a few months out in the sun and everything starts showing up.
Instead of going to primer after 80 you would use the easier sanding poly putty and sand that with 180 then 320. If the scratches and other imperfections like waves aren't there in the first place they cant swell up or shrink, the putty is very good at that. burring it in primer, no so much.
In general I try to do one coat of filler, (sometimes two), sanded with 80 and one coat of putty, (sometimes two) sanded with 180 -320 then prime. sand primer with 320 dry or 400 wet and paint. Everyone wants to rush to get that primer on then they have problems.
I had more trouble learning the filler work than any other part of body and paint work but there were no build primers and poly putties back then just lacquer primer and nitro stain so you didn't leave scratches and what not for the primer to take care of if you did they were 100% certain to come back and bite you so learning took time. The frustration was all part of it.
I agree with everything you said there. Henry is correct in that looking at it a bit different and using a modern high quality filler like Rage Ultra or 3m Platinum Plus does change everything, they are SOOOOO much better than cheaper fillers or the fillers of yesterday. I haven't used them enough but I am thinking the "skim coat" in polyester putty may not be needed as he said. The fact is, the same basic technique should be used as we have described in a "skim coat" like application to finish it off after shaping it. If you can get by without the polyester putty, cool, if not, use it.

What I see is it's still that technique, shaping, then that skim coat to finalize it, THAT is the trick.

In a nutshell, I see guys trying to get it perfect in every application and failing miserably, miserably. Can some do it, I guess so. But what I see every single day is guys putting on filler, sanding it with way too fine of paper thinking they are going to finish it off in that one app. They are working way too hard trying to finish it off with fine paper and precise sanding trying to finish it off, only to give up and have to put another application anyway! Then they will do that again, and again, applying filler many times. Then they will send it to the paint dept to have them turn it down because of waves or what ever and it comes back to have them put another coat on!

Sure there are guys who can pull it off with one or two coats doing it that way or getting it done with one coat over and over and then every once in a while have to apply another so it's worth it to them. But that is not the norm of what I see. They apply over and over, period, every time and they are not saving a minute, only spending more time.

I was taught the skim coat method 38 years ago by a very good bodyman and have used it ever sense with great success. I don't care what filler I use, I use the method and it's done me well. Back then we were thinning the filler with fiberglass resin as there was nothing what so ever like polyester putty, it didn't exist in any form. As polyester putty came around I switched to it and never looked back.

But as Henry brought up, I can see skipping it and simply doing the same basic thing with the quality fillers of today. They are like honey, they spread like polyester putty, like Evercoat's "Glaze Coat" polyester putty! They really could be used like this. And I am sure after a while found to on sure time one coat fills not need to be followed up, I am sure they would, they are that good.

The thing is, that is a steep learning curve for a newbe, so the very basic "skim coat" method I have used is what I recommend. It's the most "user friendly" method to finalize and perfect before primer.

Brian
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Old 06-16-2017, 09:24 AM
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Looks like I may have wasted some primer. I thought that things were close to zero when I shot it but a lot of stuff showed up afterwards. My plan was to get it damn near perfect then shoot it with an epoxy primer-sealer, sand that w/600 & go for color.
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  #28 (permalink)  
Old 06-16-2017, 10:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by belchfire View Post
Looks like I may have wasted some primer. I thought that things were close to zero when I shot it but a lot of stuff showed up afterwards. My plan was to get it damn near perfect then shoot it with an epoxy primer-sealer, sand that w/600 & go for color.
That's where that last skim coat comes in, as DBM called it "primer" that is exactly why it's so valuable. You look at it like primer, finishing it off to perfection and the primer doesn't have to "work so hard."

Brian
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Old 06-16-2017, 04:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
The glazing putties are used instead of a fist coat of primer. when you get your bodywork roughed in with 80 most body men Ive seen go right to primer and for your production work I guess that's ok but its still a short cut that can cause problems within a year like scratches swelling up, shrinking and the feather edges around the work swelling, especially on hoods. sure, it looks good when it leaves the shop but a few months out in the sun and everything starts showing up.
Instead of going to primer after 80 you would use the easier sanding poly putty and sand that with 180 then 320. If the scratches and other imperfections like waves aren't there in the first place they cant swell up or shrink, the putty is very good at that. burring it in primer, no so much.
In general I try to do one coat of filler, (sometimes two), sanded with 80 and one coat of putty, (sometimes two) sanded with 180 -320 then prime. sand primer with 320 dry or 400 wet and paint. Everyone wants to rush to get that primer on then they have problems.
I had more trouble learning the filler work than any other part of body and paint work but there were no build primers and poly putties back then just lacquer primer and nitro stain so you didn't leave scratches and what not for the primer to take care of if you did they were 100% certain to come back and bite you so learning took time. The frustration was all part of it.
I never said I don't skim coat stuff. I'm saying I don't use glazes much on my own dime. I don't see much benefit to it. At work I use it all the time.

Last edited by tech69; 06-16-2017 at 04:13 PM.
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  #30 (permalink)  
Old 06-17-2017, 07:55 AM
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Henry, can you skim coat with rage gold and start sanding it with 180? or do you have cut with 80 first then go to 180? All the poly putties can be sanded with 180 without starting with 80. Ive never used the rage gold so I don't know.
The z grip I use cant be sanded with 180 but sands easily with 80 so the putty comes in handy for the second round of filler.
I keep saying I'm going to try that rage gold but when I have it in my hands I always put it back and get the zgrip because its about 15.00 cheaper but if the gold sands with 180 it would be cheaper to use than buying putty.
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