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  #31 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2016, 06:16 PM
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2016, 06:34 PM
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I don't think the cylinders on that 400 are gonna work without a rebore which makes it about as useless as teats on a bore hog for this build. (That's a male hog in case you're not aware). I think that's the point Eric was trying to make.You may find plenty of stock bore 400 blocks, but, not many USABLE stock bore blocks.If it has to be bored, it is totally useless for this build.
Greg T, not sure what kind of price the Dart blocks are going for now, but, FWIW, Blueprint has an in-house 4.125" bore cast iron block for approx $1500.Mite be worth looking into.They come in 1 piece or 2 piece seal & can use a roller valvetrain.

Last edited by jokerZ71; 10-27-2016 at 06:45 PM.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old 10-27-2016, 07:13 PM
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1st of all, you have to find that block & then you have to verify that it's a good standard bore block.Aren't you the 1 who says you can't trust nothing on Craigslist? You gonna drive all over the country stabbing bores till you find 1? Yes, regardless of what you say, they are rare.Very rare & so are low milage 400 trucks, which again means, you have to find the truck, then you have to verify it's good, which means going to wherever it is & pulling a motor & checking it out.THEN, once you spend all that time & effort, IF, you do find it, you have to go have a custom crank made so it can be used.Sounds like a wild goose chase to me for absolutely nothing gained from it.
1 thing for sure, if they were that common & easy to find, you would've posted more than 1 link to a rusty worn out short block.You always try to back up your BS with some sorta other BS, but, at the end of thd day, it's still just a pile of BS.
BS+ BS= BS.All day every day.
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Old 10-27-2016, 09:25 PM
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I'm going to keep a lookout for a good 400 block. If the price is right I'll be happy to drive a ways to take a look. The prices around here are pretty damned high, so if I see something reasonable, even if I can't use it I'll take it. I can resell them here if they're std bore and able to be oversized.

I'd like to use as many existing parts as possible. He has a clean 327 small journal crank and I believe someone makes shim bearings for them to fit the 350 or 400 blocks. As far as revs, we don't need to make 800 hp, but it sure would be cool to hit around 600 with a small cube. I've gotta talk it over with him, but I'm sure it will either be a 3.25 stroke or a 3.75 stroke motor, simply because we have a good start. The shorty would be better because we have the crank, BUT, if we find a 400 short block it may change things.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 07:54 AM
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As your finding out,trying to build a motor around 1 specif part,wether it be pistons,cam,crank,or,whatever can be a real PITA.What starts out as something that looks like a great deal can not be so much.You can very quickly spend more than the deal saved you,or,settle & compromise the build itself to use that "deal".
Another thing you will need to consider & deal with next is compression for the cam/crank choice to hit your power goals & use for the motor & fuel.IDK if you ever determined the piston cc & how it will effect compression with the different strokes & head volumes,but,it is gonna be something to be considered.You may find it would be better to start over & sell those pistons.
Not sure the stock 400 block would be a good choice for the power/rpm range you are looking for,that is if you can find a good usable block.
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
I posted the link to the shim bearings above your last post at the top.

The bottom is a set of 6.2 nascar take off rods. You can get them as low as 75 bucks but the pin size goes down with price.

What size is the pin in the pistons. These are using smaller honda rod big ends. But the small journal crank can easily be turned down to this size and bearings are cheap and easy to come buy. So its an easy thing to get worked out and pretty cheap.

If you can run the small big end pins then your in good shape. You can get the pankle rods for 100-200 bucks as take offs. But they all come in .868 and smaller pins.

What size do your pins actually measure on the pistons? I will post a link to some cheap rods if i can find them. With the spacer bearings you should be good to go.

Check the links i posted the first is a Craigslist seller in your area. I think LOL Who has a good std bore block but not sure if it can be used as is. He has some other nice toys too. Worth a look if nothing else.

Block 500 bucks if you can find one.

rods 100-200 bucks

NASCAR Pankl 6.200" Billet Rods Chevy Ford Dodge #10102


spacer bearings 60 bucks.

GRANDMAS ESTATE BEAUTIFUL WESTERN STERLING SILVER GEM STONE RING | eBay


Turning the crank 20 under i think it is for the honda rods big ends.

And you got one super cheap short block. Kind of sketchy but nice for the money. It would certainly suck to see your son loose another motor but for the price difference might be worth the risk for a race season or two.


This guy on ebay has tons of nascar take offs. As you can see nascar uses 3.25 stroke with 6.2 rods its a pretty common engine build. So he has a lot of take of rods for this type of setups. Lot of guys like this down in NC so its common to buy parts from these guys they toss anything that broke and sell the good parts. often these engine are pretty bullit proof so they just use part that were run in testing for sale. It takes a lot to break these kind of parts.

cvpd | eBay


Hope this helps.

I mic'd the pins at .975". That's kinda the elephant in this entire engine room. If they were std SBC it would probably be much easier to piece together. What I've got in mind has not even been discussed with my son yet. He has a perfect 327 sitting, and all we really need to do is put decent pistons, cam/lifters and heads on the thing and he'll have a decent motor. I just though, since I already have these pistons, it would be cool to make a high HP screamer. Now that you've shown me that 6.2 rods seem to be readily available, I may just try talking him into it. We could use the existing crank, just have to take it easy on it, and the pistons I have. So, in addition to the heads, cam, etc, that is already needed, we're just talking a good block and set of rods. I think those bearing spacers would be just fine for the purpose. I wouldn't want to use them in a NASCAR or NHRA motor, but for the street and (and a few street races) I'd think they'd be fine.

EDIT Just noticed that those spacer bearings are for large journal. I'll have to see if someone makes them for small journal 327 cranks. I believe the small journal cranks are 2.30" and the 400 block is 2.65"?

Last edited by Greg T; 10-28-2016 at 08:36 AM.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 08:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jokerZ71 View Post
As your finding out,trying to build a motor around 1 specif part,wether it be pistons,cam,crank,or,whatever can be a real PITA.What starts out as something that looks like a great deal can not be so much.You can very quickly spend more than the deal saved you,or,settle & compromise the build itself to use that "deal".
Another thing you will need to consider & deal with next is compression for the cam/crank choice to hit your power goals & use for the motor & fuel.IDK if you ever determined the piston cc & how it will effect compression with the different strokes & head volumes,but,it is gonna be something to be considered.You may find it would be better to start over & sell those pistons.
Not sure the stock 400 block would be a good choice for the power/rpm range you are looking for,that is if you can find a good usable block.
I see your point, Joker. The thing is, we already have a complete engine to work with, so we have the 3.25 crank, and I have 20 brand new BME 4.125" domed pistons. As long as we have to put pistons, heads, cam, intake, carb, etc. in the motor anyway, we're trying to see if we can economically make a screamer out of it.

Also, I'm not opposed to selling off the pistons. They are brand new, very expensive pieces that would bring good coin if I put them for sale. As I stated before, they would be much better if they had std SBC pin size, but I'm sure that anyone who would buy these pistons would not have an issue with resizing the small end of their rods.

Last edited by Greg T; 10-28-2016 at 08:48 AM.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 09:49 AM
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Of course, HComton to the rescue with more faulty and worthless information....

The Nascar take-out rods he has linked have several major problems preventing their budget use in a SBC, specifically -

Problem One, the big end width is only.905", stock SBC is .940", so between the pair of Nascar rods we've got more than .070" side clearance, at least .055" too much.

Problem Two, the rod beam has no offset from the big end, stock SBC rods have an offset to put the pin end of the rod in the center of the piston.

Problem Three, the wrist pin end of the rod is too small for the pistons in hand, and too small to even rework to take the pins. The pistons have a .975" pin, stock SBC is .927", and these rods are .867"....by the time you got the pin end bored to take the .975" pin, it won't be strong enough to hold together.

Problem Four, the big end bore on the rods is for a 1.888" rod journal, stock SBC small journal is 2.000" nominal, so the crank must be ground under .112"....which is not a normal regrind, it's going to cost a good bit more....and it may run into oil passage opening problems depending on where the oil hole is positioned. You've also still got the side clearance problem from the journal being too wide for the narrow rods.

Now you know why these Nascar rods are all over Ebay cheap....you'd need a custom crank and custom pistons to do anything with them.

Nobody makes a spacer to put the small journal crank in the 2.650" main bores of a stock 400 block...you've got to use the large journal spacer, and then special thick large journal to small journal bearings, which last I knew were getting extremely hard to find as no one makes them any more.

You're going to have to find a stock 400 block that has run probably 25,000 miles or less to have any chance of a torque plate hone cleaning up the worn and out of round bore condition. The short stock 400 rod side loads the pistons bigtime, and leads to worn bores at a much faster rate than the common 350....and the close proximity of the bore walls to the head bolts means they were never round from the factory, as Chevy didn't torque plate hone them originally.

I'm going to say this again, the 3.75" stroke crank and 5.95" rod 400 cube combination is going to be the simplest, lowest cost way to use those pistons....no funky bearings and spacers needed, could even use the SCAT cast crank if you want (or stock 400 if you've got one).
Only special mod is re-fitting the pin bores in the rods.

I don't get the emphasis on "screamer", it won't make the power the 400 combo will, and will cost more to boot. The 400 will make more at 7000 rpm than the 348 will make at 8000, and last longer without maintenance too.

Noise is more important than power???

Anyone else notice those "great deal" rods don't have any bolts....meaning with new bolts you've got to have them checked and likely resized....plus you gotta buy the bolts. SMFH.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 11:46 AM
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Eric.....This is the internet and theres no room for the truth here. Just....stop



Cheap and a valve train at 9K don't even belong in the same sentence. A few hundred in springs, a few more hundred in titanium valves, about a thousand on a shaft rocker system, another thousand for 7/16 push rods, lifters, etc. Then you still have to get a cam long enough to make power at 8k and work ok with compression low enough for pump gas.

The last and and only 358 I used made 680 at 9200 and cost $32k and it still wasn't better than my 410 at 8K and $15K. The 358 required refreshes at 1500 laps and cost $7500 while the 410 goes back at 3000 laps.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 11:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
Of course, HComton to the rescue with more faulty and worthless information....

The Nascar take-out rods he has linked have several major problems preventing their budget use in a SBC, specifically -

Problem One, the big end width is only.905", stock SBC is .940", so between the pair of Nascar rods we've got more than .070" side clearance, at least .055" too much.

Problem Two, the rod beam has no offset from the big end, stock SBC rods have an offset to put the pin end of the rod in the center of the piston.

Problem Three, the wrist pin end of the rod is too small for the pistons in hand, and too small to even rework to take the pins. The pistons have a .975" pin, stock SBC is .927", and these rods are .867"....by the time you got the pin end bored to take the .975" pin, it won't be strong enough to hold together.

Problem Four, the big end bore on the rods is for a 1.888" rod journal, stock SBC small journal is 2.000" nominal, so the crank must be ground under .112"....which is not a normal regrind, it's going to cost a good bit more....and it may run into oil passage opening problems depending on where the oil hole is positioned. You've also still got the side clearance problem from the journal being too wide for the narrow rods.

Now you know why these Nascar rods are all over Ebay cheap....you'd need a custom crank and custom pistons to do anything with them.

Nobody makes a spacer to put the small journal crank in the 2.650" main bores of a stock 400 block...you've got to use the large journal spacer, and then special thick large journal to small journal bearings, which last I knew were getting extremely hard to find as no one makes them any more.

You're going to have to find a stock 400 block that has run probably 25,000 miles or less to have any chance of a torque plate hone cleaning up the worn and out of round bore condition. The short stock 400 rod side loads the pistons bigtime, and leads to worn bores at a much faster rate than the common 350....and the close proximity of the bore walls to the head bolts means they were never round from the factory, as Chevy didn't torque plate hone them originally.

I'm going to say this again, the 3.75" stroke crank and 5.95" rod 400 cube combination is going to be the simplest, lowest cost way to use those pistons....no funky bearings and spacers needed, could even use the SCAT cast crank if you want (or stock 400 if you've got one).
Only special mod is re-fitting the pin bores in the rods.

I don't get the emphasis on "screamer", it won't make the power the 400 combo will, and will cost more to boot. The 400 will make more at 7000 rpm than the 348 will make at 8000, and last longer without maintenance too.

Noise is more important than power???

Anyone else notice those "great deal" rods don't have any bolts....meaning with new bolts you've got to have them checked and likely resized....plus you gotta buy the bolts. SMFH.

Yeah, I get ya, Eric. That's why I'm a member here. I like to get all sides and options on any particular issues when I get an idea. As I said earlier, I have to see how much he has to invest this year and then try to construct the best build for the buck at this time. My idea is to make the most bullet proof lower end first because that gives something to build on and upgrade later on. I'm not opposed to a little extra work, but our nearest machinist is 100 miles away. So, we need to have ducks in order when we get there cuz multiple trips are not convenient. I truly appreciate ALL input, whether controversial or not.
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Old 10-28-2016, 02:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
You're going to have to find a stock 400 block that has run probably 25,000 miles or less to have any chance of a torque plate hone cleaning up the worn and out of round bore condition.



SMFH.
Eric - 'SMFH' - what does that mean? PM me if you shouldn't post it.

Greg,
Finding the block is going to be the chore. I know a guy that has more than 25 400 blocks stacked up in a shed - I called him and his response was 'good luck'. He gave a very similar explanation to what Eric mentioned above - not impossible, but will either be expensive or take a while.


And speaking from experience along the lines of what Joker was saying, cornering yourself with a part leads to buying a stack of parts to work around it. That's what we did with the 6.25" rods - we pretty much cornered ourselves into a sub 350 cubic inch motor. If we had it to do over, we'd a bought a 383 Scat rotating assembly and be 100-150hp ahead of where we are now. Fortunately, we aren't too worried about time slips, but I get the feeling from my son that it's going to be coming to that in the next year or two. FWIW, I've been trying to convince him to swap his 327 into another vehicle he has and build an all out (on his budget) motor - something along the lines of at least a 383 and upto a 421 SBC or a 408 LS.

My two cents. BTW, how old is your son?
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
Eric - 'SMFH' - what does that mean? PM me if you shouldn't post it.

Greg,
Finding the block is going to be the chore. I know a guy that has more than 25 400 blocks stacked up in a shed - I called him and his response was 'good luck'. He gave a very similar explanation to what Eric mentioned above - not impossible, but will either be expensive or take a while.


And speaking from experience along the lines of what Joker was saying, cornering yourself with a part leads to buying a stack of parts to work around it. That's what we did with the 6.25" rods - we pretty much cornered ourselves into a sub 350 cubic inch motor. If we had it to do over, we'd a bought a 383 Scat rotating assembly and be 100-150hp ahead of where we are now. Fortunately, we aren't too worried about time slips, but I get the feeling from my son that it's going to be coming to that in the next year or two. FWIW, I've been trying to convince him to swap his 327 into another vehicle he has and build an all out (on his budget) motor - something along the lines of at least a 383 and upto a 421 SBC or a 408 LS.

My two cents. BTW, how old is your son?

Well, that's just it, Jim. My son works a lot of hours and I don't see him as often as I'd like. He's also 10 miles away, which normally is nothing, but added to his work makes a difference. So, I don't get to discuss the various builds on a regular basis. But, rest assured, I keep all the excellent info I receive here for future reference. The thing that concerns me with his current 327 is that someone rebuilt it, it looks nice and has never been fired, BUT they used part store rebuilder pistons and didn't deck the block. This tells me either of two things happened here. Either the person didn't care about quench, OR the person doesn't know that the pistons are deeper in hole in anticipation of the block being decked and therefore may not have even assembled the engine with proper clearances, etc. I think we will have to tear it completely down, measure ALL the clearances, swing weights, thrust distances, etc. to see how careful he was on assemble. MAYBE, a new set of .030" over pistons with a little different compression height, set of nice, good roller cam/lifters and nicely done QFT will do the trick. If the guy was sloppy and everything is out of spec...............maybe not. After weighing all the options it's going to be up to him and how much he wants to spend. I may just end up selling both sets of those shiny slugs.
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old 10-28-2016, 02:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by hcompton View Post
got you on the rods eric the same guy has several sizes of rod widths.

As for the 400 there is the issue of compression. How much compression will that motor make in a 3.75 stroke. with those big domes.

The engine with 3.75 stroke will land with 11.5:1 to 15:1 depending on heads and the amount of dome on the pistons. Im not so sure about it going to 11.5:1 with those pistons thats assuming they are only 10cc domes.

I dont see why either could work but seems to me the short stroke combo can be done cheaper. You dont need titanium valves or super valve springs. Cheap heavy springs are not that much. Same for the rockers lots of none shaft rockers have gone to 8K. Now for a circle track motor doing 500 laps/miles per race the setup would be completely different. Hell the stock heavy duty stamped steel rockers can hit 7K and did when gm sold the 302.

Not everyone has a need for the best of the best. Lots of cheap stuff will go really high rpm without flying apart. Now rods can be the one thing that does not last but lucky many companies make them in many different sizes.

As for the thick spacer bearings i have seen a set on ebay a dew months ago but didnt buy them. I think they can be found. I know i was looking and saw someone was selling them as nos on there website. A good search on the net will turn up a set im sure.

Im super cheap and know that the cam is a none issue plenty of them on the market lunati has a nice selection of really big cams for the drag race market. Lots of racers run on very tight budget so they need to keep cost down and make things that are not perfect work.

I know a guy that runs a 307 and turn it to 8K all the time every weekend his car is fast and uses mostly stock parts he buys every 307 he cans and swaps parts around as need to make it work making it work as cheap as he can. Car runs fast and has been on the track for 20 years only spend a couple hundred a year for parts since he cant afford any more.

Its nice if you got 30K to spend on a motor but people did things like this long before titanium and other parts are on the market. So there must be a way to make it happen.
Well, my kid's other motor that scattered was a stock crank, stock rod, iron headed wonder when he first got it and he used to set the tach on 7k during burnout contests for 2 solid minutes. And the beat it like an ugly step child on the way home. That was a 350. Then he put the NKB heads, Howards rollers, Lunati 250ish cam, and custom Q series QFT. Spun it to about 6800 on the dyno runs, made some nice numbers on the first run, and would probably still be going strong today if the fuel pump wouldn't have had to defecate in the middle of the second run. After the complete teardown and analysis, it was determined that the front 4 pistons wadded up like golf balls. He said it was still running on the back 4 until he hit the kill switch. So, yeah, we don't need all the top shelf parts to make a good running bullet. Care at assembly I believe is more important. Balance, tight clearances, and a surgeons care is what makes them run.

P.S. These are .250" domes. The valve reliefs look quite deep, but that is relative to the dome. So they may not really BE that deep. These could easily be a 12cc or so piston. Bill Miller couldn't tell me without assembling and CCing a cylinder. I guess he didn't want to do that for free. I don't blame him.
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Old 10-28-2016, 04:12 PM
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Someone help me out here - isn't the 400 stock block nothing to right home about? Basically, the equivalent of 350 4 bolt main?
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Old 10-28-2016, 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
Someone help me out here - isn't the 400 stock block nothing to right home about? Basically, the equivalent of 350 4 bolt main?
Yes, ... even considered a slight bit weaker due to the head bolts being so close to that large bore....sometimes cracks happen from bolt hole to bore, or from steam hole to water jacket opening.

Anyone who truly wants to try for a bulletproof package doesn't start with any stock block,327, 350, 400, whatever,... it has to be aftermarket.

Last edited by ericnova72; 10-28-2016 at 04:39 PM.
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