Power Steering issue(s) - Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board
Hotrodders.com -- Hot Rod Forum



Register FAQ Search Today's Posts Unanswered Posts Auto Escrow Insurance Auto Loans Advertise
Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board > Tech Help> Suspension - Brakes - Steering
User Name
Password
lost password?   |   register now

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:38 AM
64nailhead's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 3,871
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,309
Thanked 968 Times in 802 Posts
Power Steering issue(s)

I've been experiencing minor binding at low rpm's. And intermittently it gets 'stuck' at initial startup. This issue has been getting progressively worse for the past couple of weeks.

I'm running a stock GM steer gear for a G-body with a type 2 pump. I changed reservoirs to an attractive looking one that doesn't have a vent (??). I had a stock reservoir off from a Saab that was grafted into a mount that had worked quite well. At the same time I changed the reservoir I installed a new pump due to the old one had began leaking minorly at the front seal.

The fluid seems to get too hot. I can't touch reservoir after it's been running. I haven't checked it with a heat gun, but the previous reservoir didn't get that hot. I'm not running a cooler, but i could try one. I installed a flow restrictor on the pressure port because when I look in the reservoir the fluid seemed to be flowing at an extreme rate. Also it's getting aerated.

I think (repeat think) the aeration is the bulk of the issue which makes me think I need a bigger and/or better designed reservoir, but the lack of cooler and no vent have me concerned as well. At driving speeds the steering is completely normal.

What temps should I be seeing? Do I have to have a vent?

    Advertisement
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2018, 10:46 AM
johnsongrass1's Avatar
Race it, Don't rice it!
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbia, Mo
Age: 43
Posts: 7,047
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 108
Thanked 738 Times in 605 Posts
Sounds like the box is bad.
I wouldn't worry about the fluid movement for now.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2018, 03:38 PM
64nailhead's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 3,871
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,309
Thanked 968 Times in 802 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnsongrass1 View Post
Sounds like the box is bad.
I wouldn't worry about the fluid movement for now.
What makes you think that? I have to say that the steer box(gear) is directly out of the junkyard 3 years ago and I'm not opposed to replacing it - AT ALL lol.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2018, 08:15 PM
LATECH's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 

Last journal entry: GTO Reproduction Hood
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,732
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 552
Thanked 847 Times in 724 Posts
[ I installed a flow restrictor on the pressure port because when I look in the reservoir the fluid seemed to be flowing at an extreme rate.] Quote

Fluid is being bypassed inside pump reservoir as it is not being used to move the steering gear. It is normal. Heat is generated in this process. Reducing the flow is best done by using a type 2 pump. Flow is decreased by the use of a thinner pump rotor and vanes . (.400 thinner than a P type pump ) , Thinner rotor /vane pack gives less volume than (same diameter) P type pump
That alone cuts parasitic drag and heat generated in the fluid bypass inside the pump body

The Flow restrictor is causing the added heat. You dont need it. Probably is the root cause of your intermittent assist problem ie: binding? hard to turn?

If aeration is a problem the pump will whine. A worn pump, or a front seal,leaking fluid out (and air in BTW) can cause whine. Low fluid (of course) does as well.
PS coolers are a good idea.
The type 2 pump was a good move, if it has the volume needed to run a G body box (it does)
They use the type 2 on grand cherokee, which has the quick ratio box that is so desired (And currently running in my 64)
__________________
Fact is stranger than Fiction
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to LATECH For This Useful Post:
64nailhead (10-02-2018)
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2018, 08:41 PM
64nailhead's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 3,871
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,309
Thanked 968 Times in 802 Posts
LATECH,
I understand what you're describing about the flow restrictor. Do you think the non vented system and lack of reservoir baffle are an issue? I ask as I ran this without the restrictor when I installed the second reservoir and the aeration and pressure in the reservoir was astounding.

I can reinstall the original pressure fitting in minutes to test, but I believe that I need to lose some of the aeration.

What year Grand Cherokee is the quick ratio gear found in?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2018, 09:01 PM
LATECH's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 

Last journal entry: GTO Reproduction Hood
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,732
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 552
Thanked 847 Times in 724 Posts
12.7 to 1 is in the 94-98 Grand cherokee

May be more, but those years for sure

The GC runs the type 2 pump so it should be a win win

I have a P style on my GTO with the quik ratio .Works well.
__________________
Fact is stranger than Fiction
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 10-02-2018, 09:07 PM
LATECH's Avatar
Hotrodders.com Moderator
 

Last journal entry: GTO Reproduction Hood
Join Date: Jul 2010
Location: Northeast Pennsylvania
Posts: 7,732
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 552
Thanked 847 Times in 724 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
LATECH,
I understand what you're describing about the flow restrictor. Do you think the non vented system and lack of reservoir baffle are an issue? I ask as I ran this without the restrictor when I installed the second reservoir and the aeration and pressure in the reservoir was astounding.

I can reinstall the original pressure fitting in minutes to test, but I believe that I need to lose some of the aeration.

What year Grand Cherokee is the quick ratio gear found in?
Old pump was probably worn down. Restrictor may (probably) be the cause of heat/aeration. It is causing to much pressure against the pump internal bypass

Use ATF also.It resists foaming better than PS fluid
__________________
Fact is stranger than Fiction
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to LATECH For This Useful Post:
64nailhead (10-02-2018)
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 10-03-2018, 01:10 PM
johnsongrass1's Avatar
Race it, Don't rice it!
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: Columbia, Mo
Age: 43
Posts: 7,047
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 108
Thanked 738 Times in 605 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
What makes you think that? I have to say that the steer box(gear) is directly out of the junkyard 3 years ago and I'm not opposed to replacing it - AT ALL lol.
Sounds like the internal servo is worn and bound up. I would believe it even more if it were during cold fluid condition, as before it heats up and aerates.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2018, 05:16 PM
64nailhead's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 3,871
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,309
Thanked 968 Times in 802 Posts
I'm waiting for a part so I did some additional testing and thinking - and sometimes the thinking is slow - lol! I ordered a new pressure hose so that I can put the original discharge fitting back into the pump. The reason being that the restrictor fitting requires an AN hose as opposed to the stock flared o-ring so I modified my original hose.

With the engine off I put it on some bags (friction helpers) and it seems to turn normally - maybe a little sticky at first movement, but I think it's fine. Now I have it in the air with jack stands under the a-arms next to the ball joint. It turns effortlessly via hands on the tire and on the steering wheel. When I start it up, it actually turns harder than when the motor is running????

I'm sticking with the plan to swap out the restrictor and re-test. But I have a question about the fluid - is it going to hurt anything using motor oil? I try not to doubt someone that I'm asking for advice, but I've read that the ATF in the system is harmful to the seals. Is that hogwash or what???
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:09 PM
39 master's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Alamogordo, NM
Posts: 1,238
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 0
Thanked 283 Times in 241 Posts
Power steering pump

Don't want to steal the thread but would like to ask a question regarding type II pump and rack and pinion. Latech, in your knowledge of power steering is the type II and rack compatible?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2018, 06:45 PM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: USA
Posts: 211
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 3
Thanked 19 Times in 18 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 64nailhead View Post
I've been experiencing minor binding at low rpm's. And intermittently it gets 'stuck' at initial startup. This issue has been getting progressively worse for the past couple of weeks.

I'm running a stock GM steer gear for a G-body with a type 2 pump. I changed reservoirs to an attractive looking one that doesn't have a vent (??). I had a stock reservoir off from a Saab that was grafted into a mount that had worked quite well. At the same time I changed the reservoir I installed a new pump due to the old one had began leaking minorly at the front seal.

The fluid seems to get too hot. I can't touch reservoir after it's been running. I haven't checked it with a heat gun, but the previous reservoir didn't get that hot. I'm not running a cooler, but i could try one. I installed a flow restrictor on the pressure port because when I look in the reservoir the fluid seemed to be flowing at an extreme rate. Also it's getting aerated.

I think (repeat think) the aeration is the bulk of the issue which makes me think I need a bigger and/or better designed reservoir, but the lack of cooler and no vent have me concerned as well. At driving speeds the steering is completely normal.

What temps should I be seeing? Do I have to have a vent?
We changed out the pump this summer on an old chrysler and used the walmart power steering fluid. Foamed up like crazy. Reading the label would have prevented the issue because it clearly states for topping off only, not for a complete refill. Flushing three quarts of the proper spec fluid and then a resrvoir refill cured the foaming/aeration. There is no restrictor on our system so I'll hope removing it in your system takes care of the issues you are having.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to seven up For This Useful Post:
64nailhead (10-22-2018)
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 10-22-2018, 07:59 PM
64nailhead's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 3,871
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,309
Thanked 968 Times in 802 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 39 master View Post
Don't want to steal the thread but would like to ask a question regarding type II pump and rack and pinion. Latech, in your knowledge of power steering is the type II and rack compatible?
No worries. I'll offer my guesses to your question based on what I read on the interwebs - yes, a type 2 pump will work with a rack. I intend to swap to a rack at some point when we expect this tank to turn at speed lol.

seven up,
I have to admit that our giddy up worked best when the entire setup was from the junkyard - gear, pump, steering shaft and reservoir. The pump front seal started seeping and I thought that would be a good time to get rid of the Saab plastic reservoir. It hasn't been right since. Made it through the summer, so can't complain too much.

After doing a little 'anal azation', this chinesium $30 reservoir I bought has a 3/8" hose going through an 1/8"npt fitting. Perhaps it's time to bust out the box of used fittings and tap it to a 3/8"npt.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 10-23-2018, 07:33 AM
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: New England
Posts: 168
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 38
Thanked 28 Times in 26 Posts
Type II Pump with Rack and Pinion

39 Master, I posted a similar question a year ago titled Power Steering Pump Locations. 64 Nailhead was key in providing the information. I used a Type II pump with an 88 Thunderbird Rack (Not Mustang II) in order to match pressure levels and not use a restrictor in the system. Works excellent. Search for that posting thread for additional information.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
The Following User Says Thank You to zooma For This Useful Post:
64nailhead (10-23-2018)
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 10-25-2018, 07:47 PM
64nailhead's Avatar
Registered User
 
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Binghamton, NY
Posts: 3,871
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 1,309
Thanked 968 Times in 802 Posts
Resolved!!!

Whether it was the return fitting diameter being too small or the fluid it turns the way it did prior to changing the reservoir and pump and adding in the restrictor. I feel kind of stupid for adding the restrictor as my thought process was 100% backwards - I need either more flow or less restricted return flow.

All's well that ends well. Thanks for the input.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 10-26-2018, 06:11 AM
Bob37pont's Avatar
Curmudgeon at Large
 
Join Date: Jan 2018
Location: Astatula, FL
Posts: 277
Wiki Edits: 0

Thanks: 178
Thanked 50 Times in 42 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by 39 master View Post
Don't want to steal the thread but would like to ask a question regarding type II pump and rack and pinion. Latech, in your knowledge of power steering is the type II and rack compatible?
Quote:
Originally Posted by zooma View Post
39 Master, I posted a similar question a year ago titled Power Steering Pump Locations. 64 Nailhead was key in providing the information. I used a Type II pump with an 88 Thunderbird Rack (Not Mustang II) in order to match pressure levels and not use a restrictor in the system. Works excellent. Search for that posting thread for additional information.
I have the same setup. Original builder used a real 74 MII rack with a type 2 pump. I recently replaced the rack with the 88 T-bird unit from Speedway. It works great with the type 2 pump. Biggest hassle for me was figuring out the new plumbing, the fittings on the new rack are different than the MII rack.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

Recent Suspension - Brakes - Steering posts with photos

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now

In order to be able to post messages on the Hot Rod Forum : Hotrodders Bulletin Board forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name (usually not your first and last name), your email address and other required details in the form below.
User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.
Password:
Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.
Email Address:
Insurance
Please select your insurance company (Optional)

Log-in



Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
power steering issue sportcoupe Suspension - Brakes - Steering 3 04-09-2012 08:45 PM
power steering pump issue truckboy61 Suspension - Brakes - Steering 17 08-25-2011 05:57 PM
power steering pump issue truckboy61 Engine 3 07-01-2011 10:35 PM
power steering pump issue truckboy61 Engine 3 06-01-2011 02:34 AM
Power! -- No power? -- Power!!!! No Power???! Fragzem Engine 10 05-16-2005 02:30 PM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 09:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
vBulletin Security provided by vBSecurity v2.2.2 (Pro) - vBulletin Mods & Addons Copyright © 2019 DragonByte Technologies Ltd.
Copyright Hotrodders.com 1999 - 2012. All Rights Reserved.