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Old 03-16-2018, 01:51 PM
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Question Primer & Paint Using Aerosol Cans over Filler

Hi everyone,

I had a rust spot on my truck that I just fixed up (tiny about 3" x 4" lower fender). I cut out the rust and welded in a new piece of metal. I sanded beyond the repair area to bare metal feathering and feathering back to the factory ecaot. Then I used dyna-glass on the and filled my weld and the metal area. Final filled with top filler and sanded. I am ready to prime the area and paint. I will be using factory lacquer spray can which says its an acrylic lacquer (black clear coat).

What are my options now when it comes to primer? I have seen the 2k primers (2 parts) online. Shouldn't I be able to just use a sandable primer from the parts store (not 2 part), sand and then use my lacquer? The exposed area isn't huge and its partially covered by the fender flare.

Once I get past the primer decision, will this type of lacquer also need a clear coat or is that built into these factory match cans? Reason I ask is because the can says black clear coat.

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Old 03-16-2018, 02:07 PM
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1k primer from a can is seriously cutting it short, it's "soluble" and is not protecting metal and filler very well at all. If you plan on spotting it in with an aerosol can paint, you already are asking for trouble there, so step it up on the primer is my advice.

Here is a little aerosol can review I did a few years ago.

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/2k-a...ew-144268.html

That all being said, it wasn't that long ago when we built entire cars on 1k primers and paints and they didn't explode the first time it rained either. But man you can step it up with these new 2k aerosol cans if you don't have a compressor.

Here is a review on the whole system I did, from primer to clear done deal! And if you look at the date on this review, I still have this fender in my back yard and it still looks as good as the day it was shot!

https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/comp...ew-158502.html

Brian
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Old 03-17-2018, 09:56 PM
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what the heck does 1K and 2K refer to Brian?
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Old 03-17-2018, 11:18 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullheimer View Post
what the heck does 1K and 2K refer to Brian?
They are European terms meaning 1 component and 2 component.

1 component refers to something like Lacquer where there is just the one component that you reduce.

2 component refers to something you add a hardener to like epoxy or urethane.

Brian

"Basics of Basics" Paint technology
By Brian Martin

There are many different types (or more correctly, technologies) of products you can use in the restoration or repair of your vehicle. Some have a variety of uses while others are very limited with only a few of specific uses. Proper choice of products can help you get the job done faster and/or help with the longevity of the repair.

Let’s start with some basic definitions. I couldn’t possibly know every paint manufactures terminology or product use. These are generalities and should be used as a guide only to then read the tech sheets of the products you have chosen for proper use. These tech sheets can be found at the jobber and are given away free. Or most manufactures have them on line, USE THEM. They are a wealth of information and can save you many headaches. You don’t need to read every word in the mind numbing text, they usually have a “product at a glance” or something like that will cut to the chase and give you what you need.

Basic terminology’s;

“Solvent” is a generic term and refers to any “reducer”, “thinner” that is used to reduce the viscosity (“thickness”) of a product to aid in spraying or applying. It could be acetone, lacquer thinner, urethane reducer, a special “basecoat” reducer, water, alcohol, etc. These solvents ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE; each product MUST be used with the specific solvent recommended by the manufacture.

“Etch primer” an acid containing primer.

“Primer” a product that can be applied to bare metal

“Surfacer” (or “primer surfacer”) A primer that has “body” or solids and is used to fill imperfections and provide a film thickness to sand or block a surface to a smooth base for paint.

“Sealer” a non-sanding product that is applied prior to painting.

“Primer-sealer” A sealer that can be applied over bare metal and then top coated without sanding.

“Flash time” the time you allow the solvents to evaporate out of the film you have applied.

Basic technologies;

“Single component” or RTS (Ready To Spray). This is a product that uses no additional components. Just pour it from the can into your gun and shoot. Examples are: Some plastic adhesion promoters and primers and even some top coats like vinyl colors.

“1K” This is a product that uses no hardener, catalyst, activator, etc. It may have an added solvent, but no hardener or activating reducer. 1K products like RTS dry with the evaporation of solvents and are soluble, meaning that they are could be wiped off with a rag soaked with lacquer thinner. They could in THEORY be scraped off and put in a can with solvent and stirred back to a sprayable condition. Of course ALL RTS products are 1K. Examples: All lacquer products, some synthetic enamel products, and some acrylic enamel products. Because of the low VOC regulations the 1K product options are getting scarce, with most limited to “specialty products” like adhesion promoters.

“2K” or “Two component” is any product that uses a hardener, activator, catalyst, etc. It may or may not use a third component in the form of a solvent. 2K products don’t “dry” like a 1K. The 2K product “cures” by molecules linking together to form a whole new compound. Most high quality 2Ks are insoluble after a full cure and will not soften when exposed to solvents like thinners or gas. Examples are urethane under coats and top coats. Epoxies, ISO free products that use a hardener, etc.

Basic tip, ALL 2K products should be mixed as accurately as possible. As a rule 2K products need a minimum of 55 degrees to cure with an ideal minimum of 65 degrees. MIX THEM AS DESCRIBED BY THE MANUFACTURE. They have spent hundreds of thousands, possibly millions of dollars developing the product, they WANT it to work as BEST it can. Do as they say, don’t become a “Junior Chemist”.

Types of products and their uses;

Etch primers (some are 2K)

“Wash” or “Vinyl wash” are for bare metal applications for the ultimate in adhesion and corrosion protection. They are very low in solids with next to zero filling qualities. Some are even semi transparent. They are usually not to be top coated with paint. You apply them to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection under other undercoats such as epoxy or urethane primers.

Benefits:

- Very thin, keeps down film build

- Cost effective

- Fast application

- Non-sanding

- Super high corrosion protection.

Disadvantages:

- Some have a very small re-coat window

“Etch primer” (some are 2K)

Typical “etch primers” have much more solids and body than “wash” primers. They are more forgiving than “wash” primers, one thing being a much longer re-coat window. They are basically used to aid in adhesion and corrosion protection as with “wash” primer. You would choose “typical” etch over “wash” if you have some paint or plastic filler as a substrate along with the bare metal. Some brands have a recommendation to apply top coats over it also. This could be very useful in a money saving or time saving is important.

Benefits:

- Easy to apply, smooth, easy to sand

- Some can be applied over plastic filler (not that you need it over the plastic filler, but if you have some, it is nice to not have to go around it)

- Some can be top coated, which can be a big time and money saver.

- VERY cost effective

Disadvantages:

- Added product to buy and apply.

IMPORTANT basic! If you have used ANY metal treatment or “conditioner” read tech sheets carefully for compatibility . The acid in the metal “treatment” or “conditioner” can attack the acid in etch primers and it can LOOSE adhesion from the metal!

Urethane primer (2K) Urethane primer is the most common primer used in auto body and restoration by far. It has good solids and fills well. It is easy to sand and can provide you with a perfect body when blocked properly. Care should be taken when applying it as to not use too much. It can shrink when applied too heavy. It is the best all around primer for applying over plastic body filler and for surfacing your work. If used properly it provides the proper film thickness under top coats and is the perfect substrate for bs/ss and SS.

Benefits:

- Easy to apply, and sand.

- Applies smooth.

- Fills well with minimum of shrinkage

Disadvantages:

- Contains Isocyanates.

- Should always use an etch primer under it.

Epoxy primer (2K)

Epoxy is a good corrosion fighter. It is has a very sticky resin and will provide good adhesion to MOST substrates. It typically has poor filling and sanding qualities (that sticky resin makes sanding difficult) . It is ideal for use as a “primer/sealer” on bare metal that requires no surfacing.

Perfect for frames and components, radiator supports, items that are sandblasted and you only need to prime and paint. You use it as a non-sanding “primer/sealer” and then paint right over it.

Benefits:

- Good chip resistance (it isn’t as hard as a urethane)

- Perfect for a “primer/sealer” over bare metal.

- Etch primers can skipped because of its excellent adhesion and corrosion properties. (although for maximum corrosion protection apply a wash etch under the epoxy)

- Provides good base under plastic body fillers (skip the etch if you plan on using plastic filler over epoxy)

- Epoxy has no isocyanates .

Disadvantages:

- Poor sanding qualities

- Poor filling

Polyester primer (2K)

Polyester is a very specialized primer used in very small amount in most shops across the country. But when it is needed, it does a job like no other. Polyester has a huge solids content and will fill 80 grit scratches in one coat or 36 grit in two or three! Urethane for instance provides about ½ or ¾ mils per coat while polyester can give you as much as 4 to 6! Because of it’s high solids, it shrinks very little. It is basically like spraying polyester putty. Look for a manufacture that has a recommendation to apply etch primer under it. I see NO reason to use polyester on a straight panel. It is for use only when you need some serious filling and surfacing.

Benefits:

- VERY high filling

- Low cost

Disadvantages:

- Very high texture

- Harder to sand than a urethane

- Possible need to purchase a large gun to shoot it.

“ISO FREE” (2K)

“ISO FREE” is a urethane type primer but without the harmful isocyanates that a urethane contains.

The problem is ALL refinish products should be used with the same care and concern for your health and others. ISO FREE is like “low tar” cigarettes, don’t kid your self, it is still VARY harmful.

Benefits:

- Isocyanate free

- Smooth, easy sanding

- Good filling

Disadvantages:

- You need an etch over bare metal before it.

Basic tips… Etch primers can be skipped on spots of bare metal smaller than a dime or so when using all primers listed.

Most “quality” 2K primers need NO sealer before top coating with bc/cc or SS when applied properly.

Sealers

All RTS or 1K sealers should be reserved to VERY low end jobs to save money. They do NOT offer the benefits of a 2k, PERIOD.

Reasons to use a sealer:

- Makes up for “some” poor preparation

- Provides a uniform color for better coverage when you apply paint.

- Helps with providing a uniform substrate for paint.

- Helps provide a better substrate when painting over a 1K primer.

- Can Help with “covering” poor prior repairs

Under collision repair conditions a shop may use sealers on every job as an “insurance” protection against problems. In a restoration environment where complete panels are primed with a 2K there really is no need to use them.

If you have chosen to use a sealer there now are a few more choices to make. First, you need to decide what kind of sealer to use. As I mentioned in the beginning, RTS or 1k could be used to save money. Why put a 1K sealer over your 2K primer (I hope you are using a 2K primer) then apply a 2K top coat? It is like the old saying, “It’s only as strong as it’s weakest link”. If you use a 1K sealer in this fashion it is like replacing a link in your tow chain with a nylon tie!

With 2K there are a few options, epoxy and urethane being the most popular. I don’t feel that there is a huge difference in the two as far as how they apply or work. Epoxy is more forgiving with sensitive substrates. It really comes down to what you feel more comfortable with. The epoxy has no isos so that would be one reason to choose it.

Now that you have decided what sealer to use you have to decide on what application.

Most sealers give you the option of a “wet on wet” (or very close to it) or a full “barrier coat” application.

The difference being with “wet on wet” the sealer is applied and then allowed a short flash time before the basecoat or SS is applied. A “barrier coat” is where the sealer is applied, then allowed to cure or at the very least to totally flash. This allows the sealer to become a barrier so the solvents from the color coat can’t penetrate it and attack the substrate.

The barrier coat procedure allows for he sealer to do MUCH more of what you choose to use a sealer for in the first place. The choice is made taking into account a few factors. How sensitive is the substrate? Or, how aggressive are the solvents in the color coat that you are applying? If it is very hot weather and you are using a slow solvent in the color coat to help it lay out, you may choose to use a sealer because you know that the substrate is sensitive and the slow solvent will attack it.
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Old 03-18-2018, 01:48 PM
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Thanks for the detailed info and links Brian! I learned a lot and without a doubt 2k clear and primer are way better then the garbage they sell at the stores.

I could not find 2k primer or clear at any auto parts store, I didn't really have time to wait for buying online. It's crazy the garbage that is sold to consumers at Auto parts store. I went with regular primer and did about 6 costs and then dried and did about 5 clear. Going to polish the clear now, it's very unfortunate that as a consumer we just don't have access to good stuff readily.
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:04 PM
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my truck is covered with 2 part primer then, 2K. on other parts like the inside of my buick i have done fine with 1k primer and spray paint. however once i primered with primer on my ponitacs valley cover and when i sprayed it with engine enamel, it cracked like a mirror. you have to use a primer that is made for enamel, or laquer. if you mix them up you get what happened to me. a re-do! and it sux! just glad it was on something small. most primers are for laquer i rekken
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Old 03-19-2018, 12:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bullheimer View Post
my truck is covered with 2 part primer then, 2K. on other parts like the inside of my buick i have done fine with 1k primer and spray paint. however once i primered with primer on my ponitacs valley cover and when i sprayed it with engine enamel, it cracked like a mirror. you have to use a primer that is made for enamel, or laquer. if you mix them up you get what happened to me. a re-do! and it sux! just glad it was on something small. most primers are for laquer i rekken
So you used 2k primer then regular 1k paint and that cracked. I guess that makes. I'm wondering if you can use 2k clear on to of lacquer? Unless I'm misreading and that is what you did?
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Old 03-26-2018, 06:42 AM
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You might just as well go to the dollar store for your rattle can primer and paint because if it comes in a rattle can its junk why spend more on junk that wont last any longer than the junk that costs a dollar. makes no cents. but if you really want a nice looking rattle can job, wet sand and buff it.
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Old 03-27-2018, 07:01 AM
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You can get a pancake compressor for 100.00 and a 4oz jamb gun for 40.00 at harbor fright and you'd be miles ahead of a rattle can job. you can get good primer and the right paint along with the right color.
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Old 04-14-2018, 10:49 PM
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i just want to correct what i said in my last post. i think the primer/laquer wasnt the issue, the issue is i painted with enamel and the CLEAR COAT i sprayed on it was lacquer, and that is what made it crack all up. sorry
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Old 05-05-2018, 09:47 AM
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dead body man i have to disagree with the rattle cans suck absolutely idea. but agree with how you qualified that: i painted my bike two years ago with some rustoleum safety yellow over the top of rattle can primer, wet sanded it after about three coats, down to 1500 sand paper, it looked absolutely fantastic! pretty much what you said, and what you see on some of these rattle caned youtube video, which i have to say i watched a few of before i did my bike. no need to even clear coat it, but i guess you wouldnt want to clear coat anything after sanding it that smooth. still, last time i saw the bike the tank looked like i just painted it. there was one spot on the front fender tho where for some reason there was a bubble lifting up. i would chalk that down to crappy prep tho not the paint. what's great is you can just sand it down clean it right this time and respray it, sand it, done deal. please be reminded i am not a painter, have a compressor and a gun, but wouldn't try to spray anything other than primer on anything. i am not too keen on cleaning all that crap up either and am not highly allergic to the toxic vapors of most car paint and primers, even house paints! latex even!

as for my truck castro, my paint is not cracked anywhere, i was talking about that valley cover on my pontiac engine thats still in the garage i been "working on" for the last ten years.
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Old 05-06-2018, 02:01 AM
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And yes aerosol paint would be the last resort, if you are doing a big job the compressor and gun are worth the money. But if you had to, the 2k primers and clears in an aerosol can are pretty amazing.

This is that fender I painted almost 10 years ago! I have it out in my back yard, I pulled it out, took a clay bar to it because it had a bunch of crap on it, and this is what you get. I also did a lacquer thinner rub test and it holds up like any 2k urethane clear you shoot out of a gun! Pretty amazing, sprayed the color which was water borne as I remember, out of a "Preval" aerosol gun too!

And yes, it's all scratched up because someone threw it out at work into the metal bin and I didn't know it for a few days. But I grabbed it and brought it home. It had been up on the roof of a shed there at the shop until this happened. So it's been out in the sun and rain and all for almost 10 years!

Brian
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:14 AM
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Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I always thought my ex wife looked pretty good too, then after a few years went by and seeing her without the rose colored glasses I wondered what I ever saw in her. She really didnt look as good as I remembered, maybe at the time she was just good enough.

Whats the problem with rattle cans?
1) the material is very thin (poor coverage)
2) its 1k (air dry) even when applied with a spray gun and a qt of 1k paint it fades fast
3) its more expensive than the proper material to use
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by deadbodyman View Post
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
I always thought my ex wife looked pretty good too, then after a few years went by and seeing her without the rose colored glasses I wondered what I ever saw in her. She really didnt look as good as I remembered, maybe at the time she was just good enough.

Whats the problem with rattle cans?
1) the material is very thin (poor coverage)
2) its 1k (air dry) even when applied with a spray gun and a qt of 1k paint it fades fast
3) its more expensive than the proper material to use
The ones I sprayed that fender with were NOT 1k, they were 2K aerosol cans. And yes, it's crazy how little paint is in those cans, I forget now but it's something like 6 or 8 oz. That is NOT very much paint.

But for small things, to get into the paint world, damn it's pretty impressive how good that 2k rattle can stuff is!

Brian
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Old 05-06-2018, 09:48 AM
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I used a can of eastwoods 2K primer in a rattle can.It has the activator button that you push (on the can bottom) to release the activator.
25 bucks a can and not much paint inside.
My opinion of it was it was good in a pinch.It was pretty thin (seemed to be reduced pretty far) so coverage was light. WAY too expensive to do any sizeable project.

MartinSr. and DB both have posted very good info and their perspective is spot on . Good advice and tech from both guys.

I like the post DB posted about a small compressor and a harbor freight spray gun. AND when your project is done , you can do something else because now you have a tool for such, instead of just an empty spry can that winds up in a landfill. Plus it will run an airbrush.
I have used several of the HF "Jamb" guns mentioned (actually called a detail gun by HF) . They work well for the most part. I have had 3 so far.One was defective.I broke one, and I still have a working one.Hey for 15 bucks ...

I also use the HF inline dessicant filter at the gun end and a regulator mounted at the handle of the sprayer to keep an eye on pressure .
My compressor also has a small water separator at the outlet.

I am no expert, but I can get er done thank to the advice of the Guys who post here who have performed body/paint for years as a profession.
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