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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 08-01-2020, 08:57 PM
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Hey guys, I figured I'd just throw this post on this thread, since it's about these heads.

So I got a basic CC Kit from Jeg's, just to verify that these Profiler's have 70cc chambers.
There's nothing that identifies the specifics on the head, and I wanted to make sure I was sent the right thing before proceeding with any other work.
The chamber volume ended up checking out fine, but in the process, I noticed that the exhaust valves have some seepage. The intake valves had no seepage at all, but of the 3 chambers that I checked so far, all exhaust valves had seepage.

So, my questions are... are the exhaust valves treated differently than the intake valves in the machining/installation process? Are intake valves done more precisely, since they're critical to vacuum etc.? Is some seepage allowable on the exhaust valve?

At first my thought was "crap it's leaking, that's bad!".... but when I got the same results from each chamber that I checked, I figured I'd better run this by you guys (y'all) and see what the real story is on this subject.

Thanks in advance for feedback...

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Old 08-01-2020, 09:17 PM
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You're not the first to mention this about Profiler heads... a thread a while back here showed valve seats that looked like they were knurled! Of course, this problem exists on almost all brands of heads:




That's why we don't pay for assembled heads since we have to unassemble and fix them anyways... plus we don't want 2 piece welded Chinese or stock valves that the heads break off of... we want to buy 1 piece valves! :

https://www.competitionproducts.com/...s/products/34/

We also don't want one spring rate fits all cams valve springs...
.

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Old 08-01-2020, 09:35 PM
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If they are assembled, take a dead blow hammer/rubber mallet/rawhide mallet and smack the exhaust valves open 2-3 times each, and then check for leakage again.
The soft release of a valve spring compressor sometimes doesn't let the valve fully seat.

Smack the valve tip end enough to make the valve "pop" off the seat and slam shut.
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
If they are assembled, take a dead blow hammer/rubber mallet/rawhide mallet and smack the exhaust valves open 2-3 times each, and then check for leakage again.
The soft release of a valve spring compressor sometimes doesn't let the valve fully seat.

Smack the valve tip end enough to make the valve "pop" off the seat and slam shut.
Thanks for the tip Eric!

I'm going to have the shop go ahead and disassemble, check, massage as necessary, and reassemble.
After all the money I'm spending on this motor, I'd be irresponsible to not spend another $200 to make sure the heads are 100%.

I'm definitely not equipped to do any proper head work, so I'll bite the bullet and leave it up to the experts.

Thanks!
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulSurfSD View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by ericnova72 View Post
If they are assembled, take a dead blow hammer/rubber mallet/rawhide mallet and smack the exhaust valves open 2-3 times each, and then check for leakage again.
The soft release of a valve spring compressor sometimes doesn't let the valve fully seat.

Smack the valve tip end enough to make the valve "pop" off the seat and slam shut.
Thanks for the tip Eric!

I'm going to have the shop go ahead and disassemble, check, massage as necessary, and reassemble.
After all the money I'm spending on this motor, I'd be a ********* to not spend another $200 to make sure the heads are 100%.

I'm definitely not equipped to do any proper head work, so I'll bite the bullet and leave it up to the experts.

Thanks! <img src="https://www.hotrodders.com/forum/../images/smilies/thumbup.gif" border="0" alt="" title="thumb up" class="inlineimg" />
Im happy they finally came in!
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Old 08-01-2020, 09:52 PM
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I wanted to make sure this wasn't a "return them" type of issue, but if this is something that is "sort of expected" on aftermarket heads, I'll just have the shop fix them up properly.
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Old 08-01-2020, 10:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulSurfSD View Post
I wanted to make sure this wasn't a "return them" type of issue, but if this is something that is "sort of expected" on aftermarket heads, I'll just have the shop fix them up properly.
It shouldn't be expected... but it happens too often... could return them and ask they be made right... also ask if 2 piece or 1 piece valves....

Leaking exhaust valves will quickly burn through at the leak...
.
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:11 AM
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Im 40; when I was a kid, I watched my Dad and his buddies building SuperModifieds to run at Oswego and out west. When they started, it was old GM iron heads on BBC and the occasional Pontiac; with Kinsler fuel injection. By the time my family got out of the scene, it was heads by Lee Sheppard.

Even today, assembled heads are a crap shoot. If I could have afforded it recently, I would have just bough them through Speier or Weingartner. However, the 200 bucks to check the guides for burrs, to make sure everything was lubricated and that they were assembled correctly? Easily worth the 200.
Think of it this way; if you had a seal or a keeper that wasnt seated properly, or the valveguide had a small burr, or was a little too tight? AND you had the heads strapped on...just the frustration alone is worth the 200 bucks.

Now; get this sucker gussied up and post a video!
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Old 08-03-2020, 11:12 AM
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Latest update:

So I talked with my local shop this morning, and they said they can do a "performance valve job" for $250 (So. Cal prices), and make sure everything is 100%.

I then called Pro-Filer.
First I inquired about whether the valves are 1 or 2-piece. He said they are 1-piece valves.
I then went through the exhaust valve leakage issue with him.
He said that they probably just need to be "run in", and that would most likely go away.
I countered that the consensus among more knowledgeable folks than myself, is that if you have leakage, don't install them. He suggested that I could lap the valves (which is probably no biggie for many of the guys here), which I agree may be all that's needed, if I had any experience doing that.

I then inquired about my options as far as returning them so that they could resolve the issue, just to see how they handle this type of situation.
He said that they would pressure check them, and do whatever was necessary to resolve the issue.
So he indicated that they would definitely go to greater lengths than whatever they do by default during assembly.
He also assured me that they would pay shipping for the process.

So, although I was disappointed that there was an issue, especially since I had to stew on it over the weekend, I must say that I am very pleased with the Customer Service that I received from Pro-Filer. The guy that I spoke to (I don't recall his name unfortunately) was very nice throughout our conversation, and seemed genuinely concerned with getting my issues resolved.

So definite bonus points for Pro-Filer's Customer Service.

That being said, I'm just going to have my local shop do their thing, since as noted by others, double-checking everything on assembled heads is highly advisable anyway.
I can also consider it a contribution to the "Support Your Local Machine Shop" movement...
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Old 08-03-2020, 01:16 PM
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Dang Buzz;

I hope you know that even AFR has production tolerance issues, and even AFR uses import castings for some heads. Even GM had a run of 383s with oil consumption issues. Profiler has a great performing, American-cast/machined/assembled head for a very reasonable price. They use 1-pc valves, quality seals and the fit and finish seemed very good. Hell a local shop here had tight/dry guides in a set of Brodix heads. My customer was outside Tulsa OK when his motor committed Hari-kari. Trust but verify. Its way cheaper to double check than it is to find something that was missed after its installed. But not everyone can do a competent inspection and blueprinting at home, so have someone more knowledgeable assist you.
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Old 08-03-2020, 04:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SoulSurfSD View Post
Latest update:

So I talked with my local shop this morning, and they said they can do a "performance valve job" for $250 (So. Cal prices), and make sure everything is 100%.

I then called Pro-Filer.
First I inquired about whether the valves are 1 or 2-piece. He said they are 1-piece valves.
I then went through the exhaust valve leakage issue with him.
He said that they probably just need to be "run in", and that would most likely go away.
I countered that the consensus among more knowledgeable folks than myself, is that if you have leakage, don't install them. He suggested that I could lap the valves (which is probably no biggie for many of the guys here), which I agree may be all that's needed, if I had any experience doing that.

I then inquired about my options as far as returning them so that they could resolve the issue, just to see how they handle this type of situation.
He said that they would pressure check them, and do whatever was necessary to resolve the issue.
So he indicated that they would definitely go to greater lengths than whatever they do by default during assembly.
He also assured me that they would pay shipping for the process.

So, although I was disappointed that there was an issue, especially since I had to stew on it over the weekend, I must say that I am very pleased with the Customer Service that I received from Pro-Filer. The guy that I spoke to (I don't recall his name unfortunately) was very nice throughout our conversation, and seemed genuinely concerned with getting my issues resolved.

So definite bonus points for Pro-Filer's Customer Service.

That being said, I'm just going to have my local shop do their thing, since as noted by others, double-checking everything on assembled heads is highly advisable anyway.
I can also consider it a contribution to the "Support Your Local Machine Shop" movement...
They are correct about the valves sealing. But they could be wrong. 'An ounce of prevention.......' you know how that saying goes. I wouldn't get wound up over what you have going on. Profiler has an extremely reputable name AND product. A custom valve job is just that - custom. Necessary...hmmm, not sure. A good idea....absolutely.

I leak checked mine and looked them over hard when they were new. Bolted them on and put 14 psi of boost to them - they performed great for over 10K miles. They're almost ready to come back into action on another build. I'm going to do a second leak down test to confirm they are within 5% of the test when they were pulled and then crank them up for the next 50-80K miles of NA use. I'm sure they will be fine and I'm sure yours would be fine if you bolted them on and ran 'em.

Good luck and let's see some tire smoke vids

Jim
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Old 08-03-2020, 05:00 PM
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One more thing to note here....a perfect seal cold does not in any way equate to a perfect seal hot and running, due to thermal distortion.

This is to say getting a perfect seal on a room temp head in the shop doesn't mean much....that's why valve lapping has pretty much fallen out of use by even the very best cylinder head shops.... it's just a waste of time.
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:28 PM
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They are correct about the valves sealing. But they could be wrong. 'An ounce of prevention.......' you know how that saying goes. I wouldn't get wound up over what you have going on. Profiler has an extremely reputable name AND product. A custom valve job is just that - custom. Necessary...hmmm, not sure. A good idea....absolutely.

Good luck and let's see some tire smoke vids

Jim
Yeah I figure that as long as the components are all as good as can be expected for the price, then I've got a nice set of heads ($1315 at my door), and an upgraded valve job and verification of all work ($250) , for just under $1600, including tax and shipping ($100 Summit discount paid the tax, and shipping was free).

When I took them to the shop this afternoon, the shop manager said "that's a nice looking set of heads".

Tire smoke vids may not be until October, depending on how the heat goes here in So. Cal... my garage is pretty unbearable during the day right now.
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Old 08-03-2020, 07:42 PM
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So the outcome of this thread is...

1) According to the experienced guys here, they should be worth the wait

2) Pro-Filer has good, old-school style Customer Service. I was very impressed and pleased, just to know that if I didn't have the extra money to have my local shop go through them, Pro-Filer was willing to do whatever it took to resolve the situation. No attitude, no B.S., just the kind of Customer Service that's so hard to come by these days.

3) The first-hand experience stories, good reputation consensus, together with the excellent Customer Service attitude, tells me that Pro-Filer is a very good company to spend your bucks with.
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Old 08-03-2020, 09:30 PM
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Valves, considering how hot exhausts run the first question to ask yourself is whether sealing perfectly tight cold and static really has any meaning of assurance that this means they seal perfectly while red hot and running.

A problem I have with lapping compound is that valves really are intended to run a ‘knife‘ edge seal. Typically there is an angle difference between the seat cut angle and the valve cut of .5 to 1.0 degrees to achieve this end.

In reality the ‘knife’ edge really has a width but the idea of the interference angle is to keep the seat clean of debris, as in carbon, from becoming trapped between the seating surfaces.

Another consideration is the seat in the head is not cooled evenly about its perimeter so like the valve it is unlikely to be truly concentric nor un-warped in operation. Probably the greatest sealing effect is the valve hammering on the seat which forces conformity between the seating surfaces.

So in the end you need to really consider how hard to chase these small static deviations.

Welded head valves are easy to spot by the thickness of the weld between the head and stem materials. In the good old days it was common to use high grade stainless for the head as it presents good resistance to hot exhaust chemistry and maintains strength in the face of extreme heat. Stems were mild steel, centerless ground rod, often hard chromed. This was for lower material cost, precision dimension, better heat transfer than stainless while the chrome flash provided excellent wear properties in the high heat low lubrication environment. In the modern world stainless is not as costly while the expenses of the welding dissimilar metals is higher a lot of that is rejection rate of weld quality issues, and with better alloys just machining them in one piece and letting them run hotter is possible to do. High quality valves will still have hard chromed stems for wear resistance.

Bogie
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